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Science Schmience Thread
Mar 3rd, 2006 at 2:29am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060302/sc_nm/science_blush_dc

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Primates may have evolved color vision not to find the ripest, tastiest fruit but to detect that tell-tale blush on someone else's rump, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday.

The cone structures in the eye that help detect color seem exquisitely tuned to skin tones, the team at the California Institute of Technology reports.

"For a hundred years, we've thought that color vision was for finding the right fruit to eat when it was ripe," Mark Changizi, a theoretical neurobiologist and postdoctoral researcher at Caltech who led the study, said in a statement.

"But if you look at the variety of diets of all the primates having trichromat (three-color) vision, the evidence is not overwhelming."


1.) Who the crap is paying these "researchers"?

2.) How come it is presented as fact when all they are doing is guessing?

Quote:
"For a hundred years, we've thought that color vision was for finding the right fruit to eat when it was ripe,"


3.) Where is your evidence?

Here is some more:

Quote:
And the three-cone system can help a primate tell not only if a potential partner is having a rush of emotion in anticipation of mating, but also if an enemy's blood has drained out of his face due to fear.

"Also, ecologically, when you're more oxygenated, you're in better shape," Changizi said. That may be why humans value rosy cheeks, he said.

The clincher -- Changizi said old-world primates that have the three-cone vision are also all bare-faced and bare-butted.

"There's no sense in being able to see the slight color variations in skin if you can't see the skin," Changizi said.

"This could connect up with why we're the 'naked ape,"' he added.


This could connect up with why we're the 'naked ape'

Roffle.

I cannot believe some of these people. They are honestly more creative than any artist or writer or anyone else for that matter. They way they can just make these random assumptions and pass them off as legitament study and research blows my mind.

I've had it with them. More flipping faith than any religious person I know. If only my Christianity was as strong as their belief in evolution.

~Briney
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2006 at 11:18am
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Very good Briney...loved it.


1.) Who the crap is paying these "researchers"?

Why it's the US government and organizations designed (oops I mean evolved) to study evolution.  They get huge grants from these two sorces to make the data fit to their theory.  Not, like a good scientist, make a theory based on the data.

2.) How come it is presented as fact when all they are doing is guessing?

Why because they have the letters, Ph. D. and M.D., after their names.  Not to mention how many people do you think actually question scientists.  The mentallity is..."We're scientists...your not!"  "We're too smart and you're too dumb to know how...just why or what."

3.) Where is your evidence?

Why...in your imagination of course.  In your imagination you can go anywhere and do anything!  Why by just clapping your hands and saying "I DO BELIEVE IN FARIES!" Tickerbell will survive! (either that or Richard Simons pops out from underneath your bedsheets *shiver*.

"I cannot believe some of these people. They are honestly more creative than any artist or writer or anyone else for that matter. They way they can just make these random assumptions and pass them off as legitament study and research blows my mind.

Just like the guy who "discoverd" Lucy.  He had 3 weeks left on his huge grant and in order to renew it he has to find something!  "Well I'll just pass off this tree climbing monkey as an ancestor to modern man!"  Boom!  New grant and now everyone refers to Lucy as a deffinate missing link!

"I've had it with them. More flipping faith than any religious person I know. If only my Christianity was as strong as their belief in evolution."

Briney, what you've said here is absolutely beautiful.  I'm serious.  You've hit the nail on the head.  You see we as Christians can step outside the box and see differently because we have God's protection and belief in His ultimate power and promises.

The evolutionist has to hold together his fragile world of lies and misreporting in order for him/her not to recognize the possibility for a God Creator.  I truely do believe that evolution is maintained, not for the scientific value, but because we want science to be the god of this world.  Science and its methods are unflawed and always leads to truth.  In truth, actually, if you study the philosophy of science you find that science has its limits and there's just so much stuff out there we can't explain with science.  For example:  "What is time?  Is it real?  Is it really a dimention like the other three we have?  If so, why cannot we travel through time like we travel through length, width, and height?

I really wish people would look at the hard facts independently of an evolution, or a creation, standpoint and see what proof does the evidence show?  Gills in the early stages of life?  Oops...a German scientist faked them, toured Germany teaching it, got found out, was thrown out of the university, and made the way, possibliy, for Hilter's view that Jews were not humans.  I could go on and on in listing these flaws.  I'm not a scientist, that is I have no letters after my name, but I can look at facts like a dectective, which I can do that since I'm going into that field.  And I find that science has tried to put all their proof on the Titanic....which is placed on row boat filled with whole like swiss cheese.  It's only a matter of time, I hope, when people will start to refute, question, and then abandon this silly belief.  My fear...it'll happen in the End Of Days.

Love these discussions!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #2 - Mar 3rd, 2006 at 9:44pm
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They are only deluding themselves!  For this, I've kept a couple quotes I think are pretty good at describing the overall picture of the evolution sham.

Quote:
Darwinian theory is the creation myth of our culture. It's the officially sponsored, government financed creation myth that the public is supposed to believe in, and that creates the evolutionary scientists as the priesthood... So we have the priesthood of naturalism, which has great cultural authority, and of course has to protect its mystery that gives it that authority---that's why they're so vicious towards critics." 


I like how it says evolution is a mystery even to those who support it...kinda like a biologist (who might have doubts) saying, Oh evolution must be true becuase a geologist dates the rocks at 500 million years old, vice versa, and so on.

Quote:
We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.  It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence of material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated.  Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."   - Evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin
   

Even if a scientist does doubt evolution and instead believes in some supernatural creation, he would have a hard time getting past the evolutionary paradigm.  Would TIME magazine or Scientific American publish an article supporting the existance of God? Heh, if they did, it would probably start riots.

Quote:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" - Romans 1:22
 

Seems like this is happening alot, hehe.


  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:14pm
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=3791...

Quote:
An extraordinary family who walk on all fours are being hailed as the breakthrough discovery which could shed light on the moment Man first stood upright.

Scientists believe that the five brothers and sisters found in Turkey could hold unique insights into human evolution.



...sigh
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2006 at 11:11pm
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I'm currently in a philosophy of science class and the prof announced today that there will be a well known speaker/professor(Michael Ruse) coming to Western to address evolutionary theories and creationism.  Its going to be at the Fetzer Center on WMU campus March 16th at 7pm if anyone is interested in attending that with me, contact me or reply here about it.

I'm not quite sure what the guy's stance is on the issue yet....

Michael Ruse, Ph.D.
Lucyle T. Werkmeister Professor of Philosophy
Director of the Program in the History and Philosophy of Science
Florida State University
The Evolution- Creation Struggle: A Very American Story
Thursday, March 16th, 7:00pm
Fetzer Center, Large Auditorium
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2006 at 12:56am
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A google search showed that Michael Ruse will be taking the side of evolution.  I skimmed an interview he had and he made alot of broad assertions about creationism and actual science.   He claimed that creationism is purely religous and not science, which is completly untrue.  If  science is the study of causality, than creationistic science would deal with the observations within the causality of God's initial creation and the laws of nature he made.  On the other hand, there is no reason to logically claim the big bang (which has no apparent cause) is part of science.   

Nice find, but from what I looked up, it doesn't seem like his stance is anything new.  Cry
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2006 at 9:50am
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Man, I want to crash that guy's party so badly.  Unfortunately, I've got midterm exams that night.  SUXOR.

Someone has to represent us!  You know this guy is going to have a Q&A session.  Hit 'em hard!

-b0b
(...votes for Briney and Pat.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2006 at 12:14pm
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It's almost hard to find the energy to go up against these people.  Most of them have had God sending them "strong dillusions that they might believe the lie" deal goin on.  But shoot, me not argue...that's liek telling Wes not to eat McChickens or something.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #8 - Mar 10th, 2006 at 1:00pm
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So... you're going?

-b0b
(...couldn't quite decipher that part.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #9 - Apr 2nd, 2006 at 3:49pm
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http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/feature1p/index.html

Excerpts:

Quote:
But there was a gravely disturbing side to that otherwise scientifically significant meeting, for I watched in amazement as a few hundred members of the Texas Academy of Science rose to their feet and gave a standing ovation to a speech that enthusiastically advocated the elimination of 90 percent of Earth's population by airborne Ebola. The speech was given by Dr. Eric R. Pianka, the University of Texas evolutionary ecologist and lizard expert who the Academy named the 2006 Distinguished Texas Scientist.

...Pianka hammered his point home by exclaiming, “We're no better than bacteria!”...

...Pianka then displayed a slide showing rows of human skulls, one of which had red lights flashing from its eye sockets.

AIDS is not an efficient killer, he explained, because it is too slow. His favorite candidate for eliminating 90 percent of the world's population is airborne Ebola ( Ebola Reston ), because it is both highly lethal and it kills in days, instead of years. However, Professor Pianka did not mention that Ebola victims die a slow and torturous death as the virus initiates a cascade of biological calamities inside the victim that eventually liquefy the internal organs.

After praising the Ebola virus for its efficiency at killing, Pianka paused, leaned over the lectern, looked at us and carefully said, “We've got airborne 90 percent mortality in humans. Killing humans. Think about that.” ....

“And the fossil fuels are running out,” he said, “so I think we may have to cut back to two billion, which would be about one-third as many people.” So the oil crisis alone may require eliminating two-third's of the world's population.





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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #10 - Apr 2nd, 2006 at 8:18pm
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I don't like science, simply because alot of the attitude I've faced from people in that field (granted, I have also met some very awesome and kind scientists). There always seems to be that "I have to prove you wrong" attitude. But, if you ask them certain questions they simply don't know.


Maybe I'm just incompetent when it comes to the realms of science, but I know its not my favorite, especially when people are out to disprove everyone elses faiths.



If any of you are wondering, yes, I have changed alot since going to college.





cait


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #11 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 2:12am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060404/ap_on_sc/caves_mass_extinction

Quote:
John Roth shined his flashlight on a black streak flowing through the cream-colored marble forming the walls of the Oregon Caves.

The graphite line is graphic evidence of dramatic global warming that consumed so much oxygen that it nearly wiped out all life on the planet 247 million years ago, said the natural resources specialist for the Oregon Caves National Monument.


I can't take it anymore. Thats not science. Thats assumption, pure and simple.

Eric, Patrick, and I are starting a website that denounces evolution, so if anyone is interested in contributing, let me know. Eric will be the lead in organizing and writing articles for those just discovering the site. Patrick will be writing on more in depth and scientific subjects, and I'll contribute here and there, but will be mostly doing pictures and the layout of the site.

Anyone want in?

~BRiney
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #12 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 8:27am
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MediaMaster wrote on Apr 5th, 2006 at 2:12am:
Anyone want in?


Heck yeah!  I want to be in charge of writing the baseless conjecture, scientific gossip, random hearsay, and other "science news."  You've got to fight fire with fire, don't you?

LOL M I RITE?

-b0b
(...is kidding!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #13 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 11:53am
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Oh man that'd be sweet.

Briney in charge of layout, Eric in charge of the basics, me in charge of the heavy science, and bob takes over the propaganda "scientists" put out.

With our powers combine we form CAPTAIN PLANET!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #14 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 2:55pm
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You get to be the fruity guy with the power of love.

-b0b
(...shudders.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #15 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 4:26pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060405/ap_on_sc/landfish_fossil

Quote:
Scientists have long known that fish evolved into the first creatures on land with four legs and backbones more than 365 million years ago, but they've had precious little fossil evidence to document how it happened.

The new find of several specimens looks more like a land-dweller than the few other fossil fish known from the transitional period, and researchers speculate that it may have taken brief excursions out of the water.

"It sort of blurs the distinction between fish and land-living animals," said one of its discoverers, paleontologist Neil Shubin of the University of Chicago.


Thank you so very much for that information. Im glad it sort of blurs the distinction between fish and animals. Only tens of millions more nucleotides to go, and we got the transition!!!!!

I'm so glad that the scientists have long known that fish evolved into animals when there still IS NO SHRED OF PROOF!!!

Thanks guys, and please... blow it out your pooper.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #16 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 9:19pm
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1747926,00.html
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060405/D8GQ4T8O5.html

On Druge this article was prefaced with this statement -
"Discovered: missing link that solves a mystery of evolution..."
"Fossil Fish Sheds Light on Transition..."

These are what we call...lies.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #17 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 10:28pm
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http://www.riprense.com/lightrail.htm

is there any truth in this article?  Huh
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #18 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 12:55pm
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/04/09/do0907.xml...

Quote:
For many years now, human-caused climate change has been viewed as a large and urgent problem. In truth, however, the biggest part of the problem is neither environmental nor scientific, but a self-created political fiasco. Consider the simple fact, drawn from the official temperature records of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, that for the years 1998-2005 global average temperature did not increase (there was actually a slight decrease, though not at a rate that differs significantly from zero).


Hehe I'm glad someone said it.

The same scientists that believe that human beings can cause global warming, also believe that we all started from ooze on a rock...
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #19 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 10:14pm
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why is it categorized as global warming caused by humans, when the last ice age melted off there was obviously global warming....  Could global warming be natural? nawwwww.

/sarcasm
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #20 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 7:54am
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Global warming (and cancer) are caused by Wes's unmitigated flatulence.

-b0b
(...knows these things.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #21 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 8:55am
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I just finished playing a session of Oblivion, and now I want some smack...

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=healthNews&storyID=2006-04-0...

This crackhead scientist is claiming that violent video games are linked to increases in "risky behavior."  Word to your mother: correlation doesn't necessarily equate to causation.

This story is tied to "young men" having "just played a violent video game."  They should have also tested young men having just finished other activities that increase adrenaline levels, because I'd bet "raised adrenaline levels increase risk-taking behavior" is the real non-story here.



-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #22 - Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:21am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060410/sc_space/newcluestohowgalaxiesevolve

Here we go again!

"New findings are revealing how individual galaxies in galaxy clusters evolve over time, changing from chemically simple to complex and from spirals to smooth disks."

Yes because we all know that simple things always can become complex.  I mean look at ameba look how quickly they keep sprouting eyes and bodies with arms and legs!  Or how humans keep growing working 3rd and 4th arms because we do need more arms.  And I'm always jealous of those people who transcend to pure energy, they never have to shower!

"When the researchers actually looked, however, they found that galaxies located in far away clusters--seen as they existed in previous epochs--showed large variations in the abundance of elements such as oxygen and magnesium, while the chemistry of galaxies in close, young clusters were much less varied."

Hmm could this be because the universe is breaking down, ie the second law of thermodynamics?  Could gravity in the inlaying of a galaxy have other bodies more readily affect them with gravitational pull rather than those who are surounded by huge stars pulling at them from multiple directions? Hmmm.  Well obviously not because I'm just a stupid criminal justice major I don't have Ph. D. after my name.  They're smart and I'm dumb.

"This difference in chemistry proves that the clusters must actively change over time,"

Kind of like how I grow older and loose some of myself (hair, eyesight, etc.)  Wow, congradulations...you've just proved that our universe is getting older.  So is aging now considered evolution?

"For reasons still unclear, many galaxies have a spiral shape when they initially form. Yet over the past several billion years, many galaxies in clusters have changed from spiral to a smooth, or "lenticular," disk shape."

Again, we've seen this...right?  I mean we've been alive for that long and studying it for that long, or we have some actuall proof like a starting line drawn by not not God that says...this galaxy started like this!

Also this artcile talks about chemical evolution.  This never occurs.  While evolution theory supposes Hydrogen and some Helium were created in the Big Bang how did the other 105 or so elements evolve?  Isn't this called alchemy?  Can't we change Pb to Au, that's led into gold.  Don't we call that a psuedoscience...right up there with intelligent design?

Gonna steal bob's pic cause I like it.



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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #23 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 10:50am
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"So is aging now considered evolution? "

Aging is an interesting word and we must understand the meaning as it is used.  The theory of relativity shows that something moving at a high rate of speed will see less time than something moving at a slow rate or not moving at all.

I have a theory that I would like to share with you....
Consider, the earth rotates at just over 1,000 miles per hour and the earth orbits the sun at about 66.5 thousand miles per hour.  Many times people ask the question, "what would happen if the earth suddenly stopped".  Well, I propose that everything would die of old age in a very very short time.  But notice that I just used the word "time" which is calculated by the Earth's orbit and rotation.  So if the earth stopped rotating and orbiting, would time stop or stand still?

Stick
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #24 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 10:51am
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Or would we simply fly off the planet because gravity would cease to exist?

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #25 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 12:18pm
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Of course you're assuming time is a contruct of mankind and therefore subject and therefore not real.  When applying the theory of relativity one must take into affect that not only is time real (in the sense that it permiates throughout the universe) but that it is also related deeply with the three dementional space.  This has been proven to be true on many occations leading credit to the theory.  However if you study quantum physics, it and Einsteinium physics cannot co-exist one is either right or wrong, or they are both wrong (I wouldn't want to set up a straw man arguement like evolutionists do).

As for the earth hypothesis this is an interesting one.  You see, we have no clue what gravity is.  Is it a wave?  Is it a particle?  Is it a wavicle?  Or, as one theory suggest is it just a effect of centrifical force that the earth and everything else creates.  So as the Earth spins we are all kept on the earth by centrifical force rather than gravitational force as we know it now.  If the earth was to stop suddenly, yes we would all fling out into outer space.  The earth is slowing down, that's why we have to add time to our calendars from time to time (Leap days and whatnot).  So if we are slowing down that means the earth must have been going faster in the furute.  i say that this proves the earth isn't 6 billion years old because the rate at which the earth is slowing down is basically constant and the rate at which it was originally spinning could only reach a certain speed till you couldn't have life "evolve" or survive.  Having a young earth model accounts for this and many more problems with the old earth theory.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #26 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 3:14pm
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Dude, you need to find Dr. Hovind's picture of all the dinosaurs being flung off the planet.

Is he coming back to the area this summer?  I'm too lazy to look at the calendar on his website.  Besides, we all know how accurate that thing is...

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #27 - Apr 12th, 2006 at 3:29pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060412/sc_nm/science_humans_dc

Okay here we go again!

"An international team of scientists have discovered 4.1 million year old fossils in eastern Ethiopia that fill a missing gap in human evolution."

Now lets look at this amazing specimen.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20060324/2006_03_24t110807_340x450_...

Wow amazing...we can know that this is a missing link even though we don't have a complete skelton.  Oh and it was found in Ethipia?  So that means black people are more primative than us white people!  Of course, Africa, is always viewed this way.

"The remains of the hominid that had a small brain, big teeth and walked on two legs, fits into the one million-year gap between the earlier Ardipithecus and Australopithecus afarensis which includes the famous fossil skeleton known as Lucy, which lived between 3.6 and 3.3 million years ago and was found in 1974."

I could go on and on about how "Lucy" is just a tree monkey...but I won't...I have real work to do.  I predict that all this skeleton is, is just a tree monkey.

"Along with the hominid fossils, the scientists discovered hundreds of remains of pigs, birds, rodents and monkeys as well as hyenas and big cats which gave them an idea of the habitat in which they existed."

Did you know that monkey brains are a delecasy in Ethiopia?  So are pigs, bird, rodents, etc.  Wow, how about early humans ate these "advanced monkies" and all these other animals.  That's why these fossils were found by the food pit.  Why would early man die right on top of the food pit?

Again I can't stress what implications this means.  Evolutionists claim that early life formed in Africa (this is not true).  However since the indigenous people here are indigenous then they are more closely related to the monkies than we, white people are.  Therefore I am corrupting the bloodline by wanting to marry my black girlfriend, since she is more closely related to these early "people".  Don't you see people, evolution is a racist "scientific" theory.  Adolph Hitler used it as a excuse for his concentration camps, Stalin believed in it too and killed more people and Jews than Hitler did, Moa did also, and so did Pol Pot who killed his own black country men in mass genocide!  Also I want to know what the chances of not one specimen but two acutally evolving in the same place at the same time in order to pass along these new traits?  And if they just reproduced with the lesser lifeforms then they would corrupt these newly evolved traits.  But that's nothing to worry about, I mean we've found monkey bones here....err...early human bones!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #28 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 1:37pm
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Alright, who forgot to flush?

Quote:
Geologists Find 500-Million-Year-Old Feces
Thursday, April 13, 2006

     
STOCKHOLM, Sweden — Swedish geologists have found fossilized feces from a worm that lived some 500 million years ago, media reports said Wednesday.

The tiny piles of feces were found embedded in rock-face near Malmo in southern Sweden by geologists Mats Eriksson and Fredrik Terfelt, the newspaper Sydsvenskan reported.

Eriksson told the newspaper they examined the level of phosphorus of the samples and that "we realized pretty soon that it could not be anything other than coprolites — in other words, fossilized dung."

Terfelt described the find as "unique."

"Cambrian scientists will certainly find them very interesting," Terfelt said.

The two are researching geology at Lund University in southern Sweden, and said they are working on an article about the find that will be published in an international magazine shortly.

"It is inevitable to joke about this, so we gave it the title 'Anomalous faces and ancient feces,'" Eriksson said.


-b0b
(...could insert so many corny lines here.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #29 - Apr 17th, 2006 at 8:19am
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Quote:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/kansas/living/religion/14284975.htm

Gospel of Judas gives alternate view
The National Geographic Society releases a modern translation of the ancient text.
BY GUY GUGLIOTTA AND ALAN COOPERMAN
Washington Post

WASHINGTON - The National Geographic Society on Thursday released the first modern translation of the ancient Gospel of Judas, which depicts the most reviled villain in Christian history as a devoted follower who was simply doing Jesus' bidding when he betrayed him.

The text's existence has been known since it was denounced as heresy by the bishop of Lyon in A.D. 180, but its contents had remained an almost total mystery. Unlike the four gospels of the New Testament, it describes conversations between Jesus and Judas Iscariot during the week before Passover in which Jesus tells Judas "secrets no other person has ever seen."

The other apostles pray to a lesser God, Jesus says, and reveals to Judas the "mysteries of the kingdom" of the true God. He asks Judas to help him return to the kingdom, but to do so, Judas must help him abandon his mortal flesh: "You will sacrifice the man that clothes me," Jesus tells Judas, and acknowledges that Judas "will be cursed by the other generations."

Scholars said the 26-page document was written on 13 sheets of papyrus leaf in ancient Egyptian, or Coptic, and was bound as a book, known as a codex. It is one of dozens of sacred texts from the Christian Gnostics, who believed that salvation came through secret knowledge conveyed by Jesus.

National Geographic, which funded much of the research, said it authenticated the codex through radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and study of the script. And despite a murky history, no scholar has suggested the document is a forgery.

As an authentic ancient Gnostic text, the Gospel of Judas is certain to spark a surge of interest by both theologians and the faithful, but scholars said it is unclear whether it also will prompt a re-evaluation of the traitor denounced by Matthew for betraying Jesus for "30 pieces of silver."


I could rant and rave for hours about how useless this "big find" is, but I think I'd be preaching to the choir.

We have thousands of copies of first-era scrolls, manuscripts, and codices for Biblical texts, but somebody finds one codex for this so-called "Book of Judas" and it's suddenly a gospel?  Riiiiiight.

-b0b
(...is glad he doesn't attend the Holy Church of National Geographicness.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #30 - Apr 17th, 2006 at 12:52pm
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"And despite a murky history, no scholar has suggested the document is a forgery. "

Wow, no one has even suggested forgery?  Shoot, why did we even bother testing it then?

I wonder if the Da Vinci code is going to have a sequel any time soon.

(..agrees with Bob)


  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #31 - Apr 17th, 2006 at 4:18pm
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I wonder if the Da Vinci code is going to have a sequel any time soon.


Haha i got a kick out of that one.

Yea these news reporters are so keen on shouting to the world whenever some paltry piece of "evidence" refutes the biblical story.
They are so eager to disprove what they don't want to believe.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #32 - Apr 17th, 2006 at 4:50pm
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MediaMaster wrote on Apr 17th, 2006 at 4:18pm:
They are so eager to disprove what they don't want to believe.


Hammer, meet nail.  You hit that one right on the head.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #33 - Apr 18th, 2006 at 1:29pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060418/sc_space/starclustersholdsecretstostellar...

"Astronomy is a science of observation. Unlike biologists or chemists, astronomers can't manipulate the objects they study. And against a night sky whose stellar inhabitants all appear identical, gauging even simple things about a star, such as its distance and brightness, is difficult."

See this first paragraph is written to show up that stellar evolution is as easy as looking out there and say "ah yes evolution IS true!"

They might not be able to "manipulate the objects they study" but they sure as heck can manipulate the findings.  However the average layman (I know I repeat myself) would not draw that conclusion.

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Reply #34 - Apr 20th, 2006 at 2:39pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/19/fossil.snake.ap/index.html

Quote:
If snakes did evolve on land rather than the sea, their fossil record might be less complete because early fossils would have been better preserved in a marine environment, he said.


better preserved in the water?  Doesn't the ocean thrash around even in deep water, therefore the fossil would be in many pieces and hardly preserved.



  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #35 - Apr 20th, 2006 at 7:04pm
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Also if that were true wouldn't a global Flood be an awesome and logical reason as to why we DO have more fossils that we really should?

Yes, is the answer.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #36 - Apr 21st, 2006 at 9:00am
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X wrote on Apr 20th, 2006 at 7:04pm:
Also if that were true wouldn't a global Flood be an awesome and logical reason as to why we DO have more fossils that we really should?


Yeah, but... but... but.... science says it couldn't have happened!

-b0b
(...thinks we should go see that conspiracy theorist in Chicago.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #37 - Apr 21st, 2006 at 9:53am
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I'd be up for the trip bob...Lord knows that I need someone else to talk to besides myself about these things.  The last thing anyone wants is to listen to a conspiracy theorist who talks to himself all the time.  I just have to be sure that I'm done with my school stuff.  It shouldn't be too much longer.  Prob the beginning of next month...what were those dates again?

Also, in reference to the Flood and science says it can't happen.  Scientists believe that a global flood happened on Mars.  So it can happen on Mars...but not on Earth!  How about that for a theory huh.  The Ark was really a spaceship and Mars use to be our home planet!  Man wouldn't that freak everyone out.

Including the Baptists...he he I keed I keed...I love ya b0b!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #38 - Apr 21st, 2006 at 10:01am
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June 2-4.  I don't know if I'd be up for all three days, but I would definitely like to see how he presents his argument.

June is going to be a busy month for me, too.  I'll have to see if I can slip a day off in there somewhere.  Maybe another Friday/Saturday road trip for us?

-b0b
(...would love to.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #39 - Apr 21st, 2006 at 1:21pm
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Microwaved Water Kills Plants

http://www.execonn.com/sf/

It wasn't really performed according to the scientific method, but it'd be interesting to see this test performed properly.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #40 - Apr 21st, 2006 at 2:17pm
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The self-cooling soda can...

http://www.tempratech.com/chill1.html

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #41 - May 9th, 2006 at 12:16am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060508/sc_space/neanderthalsandhumansperhapsthey...

Quote:
The number of years that modern humans are thought to have overlapped with Neanderthals in Europe is shrinking fast, and some scientists now say that figure could drop to zero.


Neanderthals lived in Europe and western Asia from 230,000 to 29,000 years ago, petering out soon after the arrival of modern humans from Africa.

There is much debate on exactly how Neanderthals went extinct. Theories include climate change and inferior tools compared to those made by modern humans. Anthropologists also disagree on whether modern humans and Neanderthals are the same species and interbred.

And now, some scientists dispute whether they lived side-by-side at all in Europe.



How about neanderthals are just really old (600 yrs) human beings?

  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #42 - May 9th, 2006 at 1:54am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060508/sc_space/neanderthalsandhumansperhapsthey...

Alrighty folks...here we go again:

Quote:
The number of years that modern humans are thought to have overlapped with Neanderthals in Europe is shrinking fast, and some scientists now say that figure could drop to zero.


If this is true then evolution must take place in one generation, this is called puncured evolution.  This is when a, for example, dinosaur has a bird.  And of course WE'VE ALL SEE THIS HAPPEN (/sarcasm).  Ya know I would become an atheist evolutionist if a scientist could show me evolution happen.  Let's say we have a monkey and that monkey grows to be 5 foot tall, walk completely upright, and learn to speak rudimentary English.  It must also loose its tail, develop a different skeletal structure especially in the hands and feets, etc.  I want to be able to see evolution.  I can see the planets revolve around the sun.  I can see that 2+2=4 (5 if you live with Orwell).  Why can't we see anything but micro-"evolution" occur.  If these are gradual changes then show me that as well.  I want to see a human being who is on the cusp on the next evolutionary character, a homo-super-spaien if you will.  Also I would like to see someone explain to me the formation of the brain in little changes.  You'll make a believer out of me if you can do that.

Quote:
There is much debate on exactly how Neanderthals went extinct. Theories include climate change and inferior tools compared to those made by modern humans. Anthropologists also disagree on whether modern humans and Neanderthals are the same species and interbred.


Neanderthals have been proven time and again, by both creationists and non, that these "lower lifeforms" were just humans with advanced arthritist, probably from just after the Flood.  In fact, the continuous growth of the forehead and skull, which never stops growing, show that these humans were of a more advanced age than we can get to today.  If you want to know how "scientists" thought these were lower lifefroms you must understand that they saw the hunched back, big skull, and upright walk to be a middle step between apes and man.  However no other proof but the imagination of these "experts" supports this theory.  "But X, we've seen these acient men's faces with the aid of facial reconstruction and they look like a cross between apes and man!"  Two fold answer takes place here.  First, I could make your skull into a lesser advanced man by manipulating the program and using my imagination.  Put more hair on your face, make it darker, give you a unabrow, put you in a loin cloth.  Blam.  Cave man walking!  Second, the pictures you see in text books are arists renditions.  Scientists asked a few artists to imagine what early man would look like and draw it.  They did and when the scientists received the pictures they put them in an order, from early man to moder, as they saw fit.  By the power of imagination...we have SCIENCE...ence..ence...ence

Quote:
The timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with significant gaps. Experts do not agree on many of the start and end points of various species. So this chart involves significant estimates.


Take that first sentence.  It says that we KNOW evolution is long.  Therefore evolution is true.  However in the same flippin sentence it also says it is controversial and filled with major gaps!  Therefore evolution...is true?  Experts don't agree on the begining or end....but evolution is true.  Now look at that last sentence...involves significant estimates...that means guessing.  Not science...guessing.  We need to rise up and slew these dreamers and put real scientists in charge.  I would rather have an evolutionist deal with hard facts then BS their theory with "significant estimates"!  Good grief I can't believe this world at all anymore.

Quote:
The overlap figure shrank in February with new research by Paul Mellars of Cambridge University based on improved carbon-14 dating to show that modern humans started encroaching from Israel upon Neanderthal territory in the Balkans 3,000 years sooner than previously thought. This rate suggests Neanderthals succumbed sooner to big climate shifts or competition from modern humans for resources and that they might have overlapped for only 1,000 years at sites in western France.


Carbon-14 errors aside...hmm this looks like a good place for a global Flood...oh wait...nope...that can't happen.

Quote:
There is no longer any biological evidence of overlap between Neanderthals and non-Neanderthals in Europe, Hawks wrote recently in his blog. Many anthropologists are aware of this but "would like to sweep it under a rug," Hawks told LiveScience.


We call these anthropoligists...charlatains and harlots.

Quote:
Anthropologists ideally rely on a combination of fossil and archaeological evidence to piece together how populations of early and modern humans evolved and dispersed globally. For one key culture though, called the early Aurignacian, there are no fossils, just sophisticated jewelry and stone and bone tools that many claim could only be made by modern humans with their advanced technologies relative to Neanderthals.


Let's see if you can find the major stupidity in this quote.  Go ahead...I'll give ya a minute.................

It's the "there are no fossils, just sophisticated jewlrey..."  So we have no proof for what is being said...but we have jewlry and tools!  Therefore evolution is true.  I love the other part...these can only be made with modern humans advanced tech...yeah could sharpening a rock and making jewlry is real tough there.  Man I took this bone, broke the end of, now it's really pointy...my tech fu is better than yours!

Quote:
A number of scientists recently have agreed that the carbon-14 dates on numerous fossils of modern humans should be shifted 2,000 to 7,000 years earlier.


What's this?  We should trust C-14...but shift the results to our desired theories?  Umm I always thought you started with a theory and found proof for or against it and then you changed your theory accordingly.  Man, I'm going to start doing this.  Ya know my stocks didn't do well...but if they did I would have gotten this $5 mill, so I'll just take it anyways.  Good grief.

Quote:
The trouble is that this trend leaves "a great big hole" in the fossil record when it comes to the early Aurignacian, Hawks said. The only group in Europe at the right time and place to have made the jewelry and tools attributed to early Aurignacian culture is the Neanderthals, he said.


A hole...or no transition?  Hmm I think so.

Quote:
Most likely, the later Aurignacian "was made by a population with genetic input from both Neandertals and modern humans from outside Europe, because the skeletal remains of later Aurignacian people have the features of both groups," Hawks says. "I would predict that the early Aurignacian people were actually more Neanderthal-like. Until we have skeletal remains, we won't know."


The major thing here is the "I think such and such...but we wont' have proof until later."  Ahh yes...science...that's how we do it here!  Also, in order to input genetic info, one species must have the info already in place.  So since we all came from simple life...simple life has the genetic info the the human eye, the human brain, lungs, aposible thumbs, etc.....right?  Oh no wai...THEY'RE SIMPLE!!!  They cannot add new info...only take away!  But we don't care about genetics...only when we can use it to our advantage...let's not have hard science get in the way of our relig...I mean belie....I mean known facts!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #43 - May 9th, 2006 at 4:12am
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Nice write up Patrick

I found this funny:

Quote:
my tech fu is better than yours!


lol


And this just defys logic, nice catch.

Quote:
Quote:
"A number of scientists recently have agreed that the carbon-14 dates on numerous fossils of modern humans should be shifted 2,000 to 7,000 years earlier."



What's this?  We should trust C-14...but shift the results to our desired theories?  Umm I always thought you started with a theory and found proof for or against it and then you changed your theory accordingly.  Man, I'm going to start doing this.  Ya know my stocks didn't do well...but if they did I would have gotten this $5 mill, so I'll just take it anyways.  Good grief.


<3 scientists and their "unbiased" approach to Anthropology... and the scientific method in general.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #44 - May 9th, 2006 at 10:31am
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Agreed.  Nice response.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #45 - May 31st, 2006 at 2:03pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_sc/hot_arctic

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WASHINGTON - Scientists have found what might have been the ideal ancient vacation hotspot with a 74-degree Fahrenheit average temperature, alligator ancestors and palm trees. It's smack in the middle of the Arctic.
ADVERTISEMENT

First-of-its-kind core samples dug up from deep beneath the Arctic Ocean floor show that 55 million years ago an area near the North Pole was practically a subtropical paradise, three new studies show.


Maybe they should have read a Bible first. I could have told them that. 55 million years ago eh? Is that because that would be the correct time in your little evolutionary theory where there could be tropics down there? Man, get a real job, scientists.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #46 - Jun 3rd, 2006 at 1:11pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060603/sc_space/electricfishonvergeofevolutionar...

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Electric fish emit weak signals from an organ in their tails that serves as a battery. Different emissions signal aggression, fear or courtship.

While the fish can apparently understand each others' warning signals, "They seem to only choose to mate with other fish having the same signature waveform as their own," explains neurobiologist Matt Arnegard of Cornell University.

But in the Ivindo River in Gabon, Arnegard and colleagues have found fish with the same DNA emitting distinctly different signals. The fish are likely on the verge of splitting into two species, the researchers announced today.

"We think we are seeing evolution in action," Arnegard said.


Smiley
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #47 - Jun 12th, 2006 at 2:05am
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Look!  Dirt...as old as the earth!

Quote:
Fossil mounds may be oldest life on Earth

Wednesday, June 7, 2006; Posted: 1:09 p.m. EDT (17:09 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Odd-shaped mounds of dirt in Australia turn out to be fossils of the oldest life on Earth, created by billions of microbes more than 3 billion years ago, scientists say in a new report.

And these mounds are exactly the type of life astrobiologists are looking for on Mars and elsewhere.

A study published Thursday in the journal Nature gives the strongest evidence yet that the mounds dotting a large swath of western Australia are Earth's oldest fossils. The theory is that these are not merely dirt piles that formed randomly into odd shapes, but that ancient microbes burrowed in and built them.


Nope!  I think these dirt piles were not put here by some pie-in-the-sky "microbes" but over millions of years these dirt piles formed upwards and as the dirt become more and more complex it became bigger and stronger thus it could protect itself more from the predetors such as the platapus and the sloth!


Quote:
"This is the pointy end of the fossil record; this is the first really compelling record," said study lead author Abigail Allwood, a researcher at the Australian Center for Astrobiology. "It's an ancestor of life. If you think that all life arose on this one planet, perhaps this is where it started."


Hmm dirt was the start of us all?  It couldn't be that dirt is probably the only thing that could survive the layers and layers of strata on top of it?  Also I remember someone saying we were formed out of the dirt before: Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.  But nah...let's believe microbes...with all their ability to form bigger and better and more complex beings....because after all they have this genetic information in their single-celled bodies!

Quote:
The mounds come in different shapes -- like egg cartons, swirls of frosting on cupcakes or waves on the ocean. They are called stromatolites and have been studied for a long time, but the big question has been if they were once teeming with life.

Allwood's research, which included examining thousands of the mounds and grouping them into seven subtypes, is the most comprehensive and compelling yet to say the answer is yes, according to a top expert not on her team.


*In monotone* How facinaiting...they studied dirt...and then classified it!

Quote:
"It is the best bet for the best evidence of the oldest life on Earth," said Bruce Runnegar, director of the NASA Astrobiology Institute in Moffett Field, California "These are too complicated to be attributed to non-biological processes -- but we don't know that for a fact."


Dirt = Life?  If this is the best evidence...can I see your worst?  I love the second part of the sentence.  Since when did we start looking at things and saying they're too complicated for them not to be designed, in this case by organism?  I thought evolution caused everything to be?

Quote:
Allwood said her study made the case for life solidly by looking at how the stromatolites fit with the rock formations around them, with each other, and what would have been happening on Earth at that time. One of the clinchers was putting them in seven repeating subtypes, which indicates they weren't random.


Not random?  But with order?  Amazing!  Is this lady a Creationist?  And come on!!  This stuff is just made up!  Oh yes we looked at the dirt and saw that it repeated in its different types!  Therefore...tiny organism made it!  They may have come from Mars!  Or they evolved tiny jet packs on their backs and flew to Mars to set up porn shops and Indian casinos there!

Quote:
"It's just the sheer abundance of material and to be able to put it all in context," Allwood said.

Runnegar who has examined the mounds in western Australian several times said the first time he saw them -- some of which jut out from hills at eye-level -- he experienced an otherworldly feeling.


Wait...he saw dirt mounds?  And he had an otherworldly feeling?  I think that's the definition of WORLDLY.  Dirt = world!  How can this person have a "religious experience" when seeing what they believe tiny organisms made...but they can't see the beauty and order in that tiny organism?

Quote:
In a similar situation 10 years ago, scientists at NASA claimed they found evidence of fossilized microbial life in a Martian meteorite. Those claims have been sharply disputed.

One of the chief skeptics of the Martian meteorite claims, Ralph Harvey, a geology professor at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, said he is far more inclined to believe that the Australian mounds were once alive.

The key difference is that on Mars, scientists were looking for evidence of life on "a potentially dead planet" and the requirement for proof is extraordinary, Harvey said. Less evidence, he said is needed for Allwood's claims because "we already know that life has been on Earth for a very, very long time; all we're trying to do is push it further back."


How do we know this?  I thought human life has only been around for like 6 million years?  Isn't the earth like 10 billion years old?  That's only like 6% of the time.  That's not very, very long.  However if this is a Creationist we've been here for about 6,000 years and we only haven't been here out of that allotted time, 5 days.  He He.  These people talk crazy talk.  They look for intelligence on other planets.  I'm still not convinced of any on this one! 

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #48 - Jun 14th, 2006 at 10:28am
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http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm

Quote:
"Scientists have an independent obligation to respect and present the truth as they see it," Al Gore sensibly asserts in his film "An Inconvenient Truth", showing at Cumberland 4 Cinemas in Toronto since Jun 2. With that outlook in mind, what do world climate experts actually think about the science of his movie?

Professor Bob Carter of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University, in Australia gives what, for many Canadians, is a surprising assessment: "Gore's circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention."

But surely Carter is merely part of what most people regard as a tiny cadre of "climate change skeptics" who disagree with the "vast majority of scientists" Gore cites?

No; Carter is one of hundreds of highly qualified non-governmental, non-industry, non-lobby group climate experts who contest the hypothesis that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are causing significant global climate change. "Climate experts" is the operative term here. Why? Because what Gore's "majority of scientists" think is immaterial when only a very small fraction of them actually work in the climate field.


Thought this was a good read.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #49 - Jun 14th, 2006 at 10:49am
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You mean scientists can have agendas that make them conclude or support theories that have false or little evidence to support a theory?  Hmm I wonder where I'm going with this?!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #50 - Jun 14th, 2006 at 11:32am
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I don't know, Stewie, why don't you tell us?

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #51 - Jun 14th, 2006 at 5:17pm
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Hey Ironman...message me sometime.  I have that "Missing Links" article for the website!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #52 - Jun 14th, 2006 at 7:05pm
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Photos taken of 'living fossil' in Laos

30 minutes ago

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - The first pictures showing a live specimen of a rodent species once thought to have been extinct for 11 million years have been taken by a retired Florida State University professor and a Thai wildlife biologist.
ADVERTISEMENT

They took video and still photographs of the "living fossil," which looks like a small squirrel or tree shrew, in May during an expedition to central Laos near the Thai border.

Known as Diatomyidae, scientists have nicknamed it the Laotian rock rat. The creature is not really a rat but a member of a rodent family once known only from fossils.

The pictures show a docile, squirrel-sized animal with dark dense fur and a long tail but not as bushy as a squirrel's. It also shows that the creature waddles like a duck with its hind feet splayed out at an angle — ideal for climbing rocks.

"I hope these pictures will help in some way to prevent the loss of this marvelous animal," said David Redfield, a science education professor emeritus.

He and Uthai Treesucon, a bird-watching colleague, befriended hunters who captured a live rock rat after four failed attempts. They returned the animal, which the locals call kha-nyou, to its rocky home after photographing it.

The long-whiskered rodent was branded as a new species last year when biologists first examined dead specimens they found being sold at meat markets. But they had never seen a live animal until Redfield and Treesucon photographed it.

"These images are extremely important scientifically, showing as they do an animal (with) such markedly distinctive anatomical and functional attributes," said Mary Dawson, curator emeritus of vertebrate paleontology at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh.

Dawson and colleagues in France and China first reported the rock rat's true identity in the March 10 edition of the journal Science after they compared the bones of present-day specimens with fossils found in Asia.


Well Well Well...it looks like something we "knew was truth" turned out to not be!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #53 - Jun 21st, 2006 at 6:46pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/06/15/ancient.birds.ap/index.html

Wow there's so much to comment on here...so let me take it one by one:

Quote:
The first detailed look at the ancestor of modern birds -- a grebe-like waterbird that would look normal even today -- was shown off Thursday by scientists who discovered fossil remains in a remote lake bed in China.


Wait...what?  We know it's a missing link because it looks like a bird that's around today?  BRILLIANT!!!  Look at this redneck, he's a missing link from modern man too!  Hmmm...maybe a bad example.

Quote:
"A world lost for more than 100 million years was being revealed to us," as layers of mud were peeled back like the pages of a book, said Hai-lu You of the Chinese Academy of Geological Sciences.


Ha ha...yes because each layer of dirt mysteriously fell down upon the other after each year.  Ya know...cause even though a global flood can do the same thing doesn't matter.

Quote:
What they found is being called the missing link on the evolution of birds, a creature that lived in northwest China and is the earliest example of modern birds that populate the planet today.


Again...how is this a "missing link" if it's exactly like a bird today?  Doesn't this just make it...a dead bird?  If you read the whole article they don't tell you what's different about it.  Now if this bird had part fins and part wings...then I'd say...wow looks like a missing link to me.  However...all I see is a dead bird...my dog use to bury those too.

Quote:
Before the scientists' discovery, reported in Friday's issue of the journal Science, the only evidence for this creature -- Gansus yumenensis -- was a single, partial leg discovered in the 1980s.


This is a great example of evolutionists lying to us.  We knew this existed because of a single, partial leg.  This reminds me of all those other "missing links" with modern man (see my blog for the article).  This isn't science...this is dogma.

Quote:
"Most of the ancestors of birds from the age of dinosaurs are members of groups that died out and left no modern descendants. But Gansus led to modern birds, so it's a link between primitive birds and those we see today," Lamanna said.


But wait...I thought dinosaurs evolved into birds?  How can birds and dinos live together?  Also how do we know that "primitive birds" didn't leave descendants?  And if evolution is true...we don't really know that do we.  I could be a decendent...oh no wait...the earthworms gave birth to me.  Good ol punctured equilibrium!

Quote:
Previously there was a gap between ancient and modern species of birds, and "Gansus fits perfectly into this gap," added Jerald D. Harris of Dixie State College in Utah.


Again...how?  What's the proof this is a "transitional fossil"?  They offer no proof that it is different!  Also, I have another problem.  We have acient birds....and modern birds.  THEY ARE ALL BIRDS!!!  If anything this is proof of micro-evolution...which is just another name for change in species.  If we find one of these alive, and we've found "extinct living fossils" alive before, I'm sure it could reproduce with other birds today.  Evolutionists would say, "No they wouldn't."  I would ask...how do you know.  You are just guessing.  And guessing is not science...it's not even dogma.  It's like a 900# Ms. Cleo!

Quote:
It was about the size of a modern pigeon, but similar to loons or diving ducks, the researchers said. One of the fossils even has skin preserved between the toes, showing that it had webbed feet.


Well well well.  After 100 million years we have skin preserved between the toes?!  Kinda like how dinosaur blood is preserved for 500 million years or so!  This is complete bull people!  Also...no difference is pointed out here either!

Quote:
"Gansus is the oldest example of the nearly modern birds that branched off of the trunk of the family tree that began with the famous proto-bird Archaeopteryx," said Peter Dodson of the University of Pennsylvania.


Even though Archaeopteryx has been shown to be complete faud.  Chinese people are making a killing my finding fossils and glueing feathers on them!  *Carlos Mencia's* durrrt durr durrr!!!

Quote:
The remains were dated to about 110 million years ago, making them the oldest for the group Ornithurae, which includes all modern birds and their closest extinct relatives. Previously, the oldest known fossils from this group were from about 99 million years ago.


But if they're using carbon "dating" it's probably +/- 50 million years.  Using carbon dating you can only go back as far as 50,000 years and that's just the start of carbon's problems!

Quote:
The fact that Gansus was aquatic indicates that modern birds may have evolved from animals that originated in aquatic environments, the researchers said.


HA HA HA HA!!!  Fish grew wings and then lungs and started flying around!!!  HA HA HA!!! We are suppose to swallow this???!  Ya know Loons also float in the water...according to their theory...they are modern birds' ancestors too!!  Oh wait...they're alive today.  They are also turning into a boat!

Quote:
"Our new specimens are extremely well preserved, with some even including feathers," Lamanna said. "Because these fossils are in such good condition, they've enabled us to reconstruct the appearance and relationships of Gansus with a high degree of precision. They provide new and important insight into the evolutionary transformation of carnivorous dinosaurs into the birds we know today."


Look at this!  They have no proof that dinos evolved into birds.  Throughout this article they have changed their theories.  First these birds lived WITH dinosaurs.  Then they evolved from the water.  Now they're evolving from dinosaurs!!!  These people dupe themselves all they want.  I'm sick that they're being taken seriously.

Quote:
The new fossil material "is remarkable for its excellent preservation. ... The new fossils demonstrate that Gansus clearly is a bird that spent much of its life looking for food in water," said Hans-Dieter Sues, associate director for research and collections at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History.


That's amazing so do seagulls!  How is this good science?  Who needed to go to China for this crap?  Try New Jersey or NYC.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #54 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 5:58pm
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http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FBCFE1B1-1994-4EDE-95CF-AAD664F9CCA2.htm


Quote:
Spanish parliament is to ask the government to approve the Great Ape Project, which would mean recognising that our closest genetic relatives should be part of a "community of equals" with humans, supporters of the resolution said.



hahaha
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #55 - Jun 27th, 2006 at 7:14pm
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So does that mean people can start having sex with them?  If we classify them as being equal, I'm afraid what kind of people (the PETA hippies from South Park for example) will love this ruling.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #56 - Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:25am
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I bet reporters interview church leaders just becuase they know they are going to make themselves look like idiots.  Sad
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #57 - Jun 28th, 2006 at 12:00pm
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Church leaders are good at that.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #58 - Jun 28th, 2006 at 2:06pm
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http://www.epw.senate.gov/pressitem.cfm?party=rep&id=257909

Quote:
The June 27, 2006 Associated Press (AP) article titled “Scientists OK Gore’s Movie for Accuracy” by Seth Borenstein raises some serious questions about AP’s bias and methodology.

AP chose to ignore the scores of scientists who have harshly criticized the science presented in former Vice President Al Gore’s movie “An Inconvenient Truth.”

In the interest of full disclosure, the AP should release the names of the “more than 100 top climate researchers” they attempted to contact to review “An Inconvenient Truth.” AP should also name all 19 scientists who gave Gore “five stars for accuracy.” AP claims 19 scientists viewed Gore’s movie, but it only quotes five of them in its article. AP should also release the names of the so-called scientific “skeptics” they claim to have contacted.

The AP article quotes Robert Correll, the chairman of the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment group. It appears from the article that Correll has a personal relationship with Gore, having viewed the film at a private screening at the invitation of the former Vice President. In addition, Correll’s reported links as an “affiliate” of a Washington, D.C.-based consulting firm that provides “expert testimony” in trials and his reported sponsorship by the left-leaning Packard Foundation, were not disclosed by AP. See http://www.junkscience.com/feb06.htm



haha i knew it
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #59 - Jun 28th, 2006 at 3:03pm
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Politicians shouldn't be making movies.  Period.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #60 - Jul 16th, 2006 at 8:49am
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/07/14/tyrannosaurs.midlife.ap/index.html

I just can't believe they can get this from a bunch of bones found in the dirt.  How does anyone even attempt to a) study this, b) publish this, and c) get people to believe this?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #61 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:16pm
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The research was supported by the National Science Foundation.


What else needs to be said?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #62 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:41pm
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your momma.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #63 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 9:34pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #64 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 9:43pm
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On a sad note

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/07/14/darwin.finches.ap/index.html

I think this "evolution" is happening too fast for evolutionists.  Also this has been seen before.  The beaks increase in size then they decrease again...this is adaptation not evolution.  I know I say this all the time but I can't believe people can believe this or at least claim this is evolution.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #65 - Jul 19th, 2006 at 3:51am
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I guess we are overdue in our evolutionary leap. European kings would keep their bloodlines pure sometimes by marrying within the family, which produced exaggerated features.  So the french prince (heh) with the big nose is actually evolving! oh boy! rapid mutations = evolution in action. I can't wait till I get my gills. Im so tired of not being able to breath underwater.

"Thanks science!"

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #66 - Jul 19th, 2006 at 11:37am
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No Briney you forget we lost our gills 43.543 million years ago.  That means loosing is evolution.  I really don't understand why we should have lost our gills and not kept them.  Just think about the benefits...more hunting and gathering, more places to run from predators, be able to exercise more.  I really don't understand it.  Of course if we were created all special 10,000 years ago by a Being who knows better that would make a whole lot more sense.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #67 - Jul 19th, 2006 at 12:53pm
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We still have gills in our early developmental stages, remember?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #68 - Jul 20th, 2006 at 6:44pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060720/sc_nm/science_snakes_dc

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Snakes may make people jump for a good reason -- human close-up vision may have evolved specifically to spot the reptiles, researchers reported on Thursday.

"A snake is the only predator you really need to see close up. If it's a long way away it's not dangerous," said Isbell, who has published her theory in the Journal of Human Evolution.


And I think we "evolved" farting in our sleep to ward off potential predators. Maybe the reason we have ears is to listen for incoming angry beavers. Perhaps our sense of touch evolved first so we could go around feeling potential food sources. If its sharp, dont eat it.

These "scientists" would do better off at the art school I go to because their sense of creativity is off the scale. Don't push your random crackpot ideas on us please. How about you wait until the scientific method is complete, and you have enough proof to back up your rediculous theories.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #69 - Jul 20th, 2006 at 9:10pm
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I think reporters should lay off on this stuff too.  I mean the real point of that article must be to support  evolution  or cause controversy, because if it was concrete truth, who the heck would care about this so-called finding?

Anyway, maybe this is the real reason snakes are bad  Smiley

"And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #70 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 12:49am
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Applauds Eric....no joke
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #71 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 1:30pm
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MediaMaster wrote on Jul 20th, 2006 at 6:44pm:
And I think we "evolved" farting in our sleep to ward off potential predators.


That's the funniest thing I've read all week.  Thanks!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #72 - Jul 31st, 2006 at 3:13pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731/ap_on_re_us/creation_museum

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Like most natural history museums, this one has exhibits showing dinosaurs roaming the Earth. Except here, the giant reptiles share the forest with Adam and Eve.

That, of course, is contradicted by science, but that's the point of the $25 million Creation Museum rising fast in rural Kentucky.


Yes, I'd like to resign as a citizen of this planet due to the fact that there is a bias that is clouding the judgement of most  human beings, thanks to the brilliant minds at the various institutions.

..ugh
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #73 - Jul 31st, 2006 at 4:12pm
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That has to be the most biased article ever.

-b0b
(...also considers resigning from earth.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #74 - Jul 31st, 2006 at 5:43pm
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Gotta love Ken Hamm though!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #75 - Aug 2nd, 2006 at 1:02pm
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This guy sounds like Ward Churtoff's twin.  This is what evolution thinking is really all about.

Quote:
co-Misanthropes Want Better Living Through Mass Death

Written By: Deroy Murdock
Published In: Environment News
Publication Date: August 1, 2006
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

Most ecologists want to make life easy for butterflies and waterfalls. Who can argue with that? Some environmental extremists, however, think what the Earth really needs is fewer people. In some cases, billions fewer.


No Better than Bacteria?

"We're no better than bacteria!" University of Texas biologist Eric Pianka recently announced. "Things are gonna get better after the collapse [of the world's human population due to a theorized airborne virus plague] because we won't be able to decimate the Earth so much," he added. "And, I actually think the world will be much better when there's only 10 or 20 percent of us left."

Pianka dreamed disease "will control the scourge of humanity." He celebrated the potential of Ebola Reston, an airborne strain of the killer virus, to make Earth nearly human-free. "We've got airborne 90 percent mortality in humans. Killing humans. Think about that."

Just five hours after Pianka's March 3 speech to the Texas Academy of Science, which Forrest Mims III covered on March 31 in The Citizen Scientist, the academy named Pianka its 2006 Distinguished Texas Scientist. Several hundred scientists gave Pianka a standing ovation, Mims reported.

Pianka is not alone.


Many Agree

In the April 17 Boston Globe, columnist Cathy Young quoted Texas Lutheran University's Brenna McConnell, who heard Pianka's speech. "He's a radical thinker, that one!" McConnell exclaimed. "I mean, he's basically advocating for the death of all but 10 percent of the current population! And at the risk of sounding just as radical, I think he's right."

Going even further, the University of Texas-Arlington's Rebecca Calisi observed April 4 on Infowars.com, "There is no denying the natural world would be a better place without people. ALL people!"

One wonders, among any 10 of Pianka's, McConnell's, or Calisi's loved ones, which nine might they yield to "save the Earth." And would these "radical thinkers" sacrifice themselves to protect our planet?

Echoing the radicals' sentiments, scientist William Burger decried "the devastation humans are currently imposing upon our planet." The curator emeritus for botany at Chicago's Field Museum of Science wrote those words last November 9 to then-Discovery Institute scholar Jay Richards regarding the latter's book, The Privileged Planet. Burger continued, "Still, adding over 70 million new humans to the planet each year, the future looks pretty bleak to me. Surely, the Black Death was one of the best things that ever happened to Europe: elevating the worth of human labor, reducing environmental degradation, and, rather promptly, producing the Renaissance. From where I sit, Planet Earth could use another major human pandemic, and pronto!"

What frightful words from a flower expert!


Assassinations Advocated

Finnish environmentalist Pentti Linkola calls humanity a sinking ship with 100 passengers and a lifeboat for 10, and posits a grisly metaphorical response: "Those who hate life try to pull more people on board and drown everybody. Those who love and respect life use axes to chop off the extra hands hanging on the gunwale."

At an October 27 hearing of the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, Jerry Vlasak of the North American Animal Liberation Front discussed his 2004 recommendations on how to reduce medical research on animals. "I don't think you'd have to kill--assassinate--too many vivisectors before you would see a marked decrease in the amount of vivisection going on," Vlasak said. "And I think for five lives, 10 lives, 15 human lives, we could save a million, 2 million, 10 million non-human lives." Asked about this comment, Vlasak told the senators, "I made that statement. I stand by that statement."

The green movement includes "Elves"--Earth Liberation Front radicals who firebomb houses under construction to prevent their supposed environmental harm (never mind that lumber smoke is a greenhouse gas). Likewise, the Animal Liberation Front's fanatics have penetrated medical research facilities to free lab rats. If such eco-terrorism delays or blocks cures for deadly diseases, well, who needs all those humans anyway?

Beyond identifying and foiling Islamic terrorists, U.S. law enforcement officials also should locate and defeat eco-terrorists who may try to use disease agents and other pathogens to animate this ideology of mass death. A few vials of mutated Ebola virus could be equally dangerous in the hands of both Muslim extremists and militant ecologists.

While the environmental movement features both sensible and misguided though good-hearted individuals, too many Greens love butterflies and waterfalls best when those pesky humans are scrubbed from the landscape.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #76 - Aug 2nd, 2006 at 1:38pm
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My message to Pianka and the rest would simply be, "You first."

-b0b
(...doesn't get it.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #77 - Aug 16th, 2006 at 1:19pm
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Possible key human evolution genes identified

By Jeremy Lovell 11 minutes ago

LONDON (Reuters) - They could be the missing links of human genetic evolution -- areas of human DNA that changed dramatically after the evolutionary division from chimpanzees, though they had remained almost unchanged for millennia before.
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Scientists from the United States, Belgium and France identified 49 "human accelerated regions" (HARs) showing a lot of genetic activity.

In the most active, identified as HAR1, they found 18 out of the 118 nucleotides had changed since evolutionary separation from chimps some 6 million years ago, while only two had changed in the 310 million years separating the evolutionary lines of chimps and chickens.

"Right now we have very suggestive evidence that it might be involved at a critical step in brain development, but we still need to prove that it really makes a difference," team leader David Haussler from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the University of California, Santa Cruz told Reuters.

Other members of the team came from the University of Brussels and Universite Claude Bernard in France.

"It is very exciting to use evolution to look at regions of our genome that haven't been explored yet," Haussler said.

"It is extremely unlikely that the evolution of just one region in the genome made the difference between our brains and the brains of non-human primates," he said.

"It is much more likely to be a series of many, many small changes, each very important, but none doing the entire job by itself," he added.

HAR1 is part of a novel RNA gene HAR1F that is produced during the key formative period for the human brain from seven to 19 weeks of gestation.

Not only that, but the RNA is produced by the Cajal-Retzius neuron that plays a crucial role in the six layers of neurons in the human cortex.

"We still can't say much about the function. But it's a very exciting finding because it is expressed in cells that have a fundamental role in the design and development of the mammalian cortex," Haussler said, noting the need to investigate the remaining 48 HARs.

The findings were published on Wednesday in the science journal Nature. Chris Ponting of Oxford University wrote in the same issue hailing it as a possible major step forward.

"Previously, the hunt for changes in DNA that are causally linked to human-specific biology had concentrated on differences that would alter the amino-acid make-up of the encoded protein," Ponting wrote.

"Now it would seem that searches within the functional non-coding 'dark matter' might be more enlightening," he added.


Wow this entire article is based on quessing and conjecture!  Way to go science!!!  Good job and developing blind faith!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #78 - Aug 21st, 2006 at 11:59am
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Why doesn't America believe in evolution?

    * 09:00 20 August 2006
    * From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
    * Jeff Hecht

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Public acceptance of evolution
Enlarge image
Public acceptance of evolution

Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals: true or false? This simple question is splitting America apart, with a growing proportion thinking that we did not descend from an ancestral ape. A survey of 32 European countries, the US and Japan has revealed that only Turkey is less willing than the US to accept evolution as fact.

Religious fundamentalism, bitter partisan politics and poor science education have all contributed to this denial of evolution in the US, says Jon Miller of Michigan State University in East Lansing, who conducted the survey with his colleagues. "The US is the only country in which [the teaching of evolution] has been politicised," he says. "Republicans have clearly adopted this as one of their wedge issues. In most of the world, this is a non-issue."

Miller's report makes for grim reading for adherents of evolutionary theory. Even though the average American has more years of education than when Miller began his surveys 20 years ago, the percentage of people in the country who accept the idea of evolution has declined from 45 in 1985 to 40 in 2005 (Science, vol 313, p 765). That's despite a series of widely publicised advances in genetics, including genetic sequencing, which shows strong overlap of the human genome with those of chimpanzees and mice. "We don't seem to be going in the right direction," Miller says.

There is some cause for hope. Team member Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California, finds solace in the finding that the percentage of adults overtly rejecting evolution has dropped from 48 to 39 in the same time. Meanwhile the fraction of Americans unsure about evolution has soared, from 7 per cent in 1985 to 21 per cent last year. "That is a group of people that can be reached," says Scott.

The main opposition to evolution comes from fundamentalist Christians, who are much more abundant in the US than in Europe. While Catholics, European Protestants and so-called mainstream US Protestants consider the biblical account of creation as a metaphor, fundamentalists take the Bible literally, leading them to believe that the Earth and humans were created only 6000 years ago.

Ironically, the separation of church and state laid down in the US constitution contributes to the tension. In Catholic schools, both evolution and the strict biblical version of human beginnings can be taught. A court ban on teaching creationism in public schools, however, means pupils can only be taught evolution, which angers fundamentalists, and triggers local battles over evolution.

These battles can take place because the US lacks a national curriculum of the sort common in European countries. However, the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind act is instituting standards for science teaching, and the battles of what they should be has now spread to the state level.

Miller thinks more genetics should be on the syllabus to reinforce the idea of evolution. American adults may be harder to reach: nearly two-thirds don't agree that more than half of human genes are common to chimpanzees. How would these people respond when told that humans and chimps share 99 per cent of their genes?


Boy don't you feel smaller than dirt after reading that biased article?!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #79 - Aug 21st, 2006 at 10:16pm
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http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/21/060821191826.o0mynclv.html

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Greenland's glaciers have been shrinking for the past century, according to a Danish study, suggesting that the ice melt is not a recent phenomenon caused by global warming.


Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Al Gore.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #80 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 4:25pm
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But, but, but... we have to live carbon-neutral lifestyles!

-b0b
(...notes that Al Gore owns three huge houses.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #81 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 4:20am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060829/ap_on_sc/antarctica_labyrinth

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A 30-mile maze canyons in Antarctica was carved out of bedrock by the catastrophic draining of subglacial lakes during global warming between 12 million and 14 million years ago, according to university researchers who warn a similar event today could have serious environmental consequences.


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060830/capt.bc956b0e337a49c29323acc3ce0e97d...

Looks to me like there could have been some kind of MAJOR draining there. Doesnt look like it would take too long to do that if there was enough water eh? Someday these scientists will stop using shoddy theories to form the backbone of their research, and then we will be able to get some real hypothesis and analysis. I'm not saying that these guys should all convert to Christianity (although, God willing), but it would be nice to someday get an objective look at geology, ancient history, biology, and pretty much all science in general, without all that nonsense about evolution and millions and billions of years.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #82 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 5:34am
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OH come on now Briney...science without bias?  Never...remember the days of old when Einstein said...I want to know God's thoughts...the rest are just details.  A man who believed in a Creator and yet carried out some prolific science.  Of course that was hard science.  Yet whenever you have the ability to interpret findings...you will always have bias.  I'm just sick and tired of science always being considered always correct.  It reminds me of 1984 and how Winston had to change the past so that Big Brother was never wrong.  Today we view things today as correct because of science and theories like the geocentric model of the universe being because of religion.  Science has and always will change.  We find out more and more about the world we live in, from the macro to the micro and it changes what we believed to be true.  Yet "science" is always right?  Which was to the place where I can curse Emmanuel Goldstein?!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #83 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 8:58am
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If by "some day" you mean "during the Millenial Reign," then I'll agree with you, Briney.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #84 - Sep 4th, 2006 at 3:12am
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http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=healthNews&storyid=2006-09-0...

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Evolution and the environment, not just gluttony, has led to a global obesity pandemic, with an estimated 1.5 billion people overweight -- more than the number of undernourished people -- an obesity conference was told on Monday.


Oh yea?
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #85 - Sep 5th, 2006 at 9:59am
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That might be the biggest copout I've ever read.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #86 - Sep 5th, 2006 at 11:07pm
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wait a minute, evolution is supposed to be driven by natural selection.. so how is it possilbe to evolve into less fit organisms?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #87 - Sep 5th, 2006 at 11:35pm
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Grin

I think the newest trend with evolutionists is gearing away from natural selection and focusing more on mutations, or additive mutations. I find it humorous that evolution changes more than some religions, yet it is supposed to be the most rock solid explanation for existance that man has ever devised.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #88 - Sep 6th, 2006 at 1:50am
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Agreed.  Science is suppose to be this true thing for all people at all times in all places.  However I think post-modernism (the believe that there are no absoultes...basically a bunch of French BS) is intertwining with "science".  We, that is the secular world, wants hard facts yet they don't want anything to stand in judgement over them whether it be a Supreme Being or the Laws of Nature.  It all comes down to the irrational, illogical view of people to try and shape their world according to their beliefs.  Now, "religious" people do this as well.  Yet as we see more apologetists and science and logic come into the field of religion...the more dogma and blind faith comes into science.  It seems that either the universe is either slipping back into some Bizarro world...or things are equallying out.  Either way both sides need to see the logic fallacies and irrationalities they bring into their situations and not try to dismiss them as nothing or try and say "nothing is wrong!".

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #89 - Sep 9th, 2006 at 5:41pm
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2342599,00.html

Apparently, our thoughts are controlled by genes.. 


  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #90 - Sep 9th, 2006 at 6:12pm
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ya that article made me a bit mad. I guess ive evolved to not like free thought and whatnot.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #91 - Sep 10th, 2006 at 1:26am
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Evolution is also responsible for grass, the belief in the Spice Girls, the formation of the Macareana, the phenomenon of the Hot Pocket's center being colder than absolute zero, and the roundness of planets from square pegs from space alines.

People need to start doing real science.  Don't we have a planet that's about to die or something...come on...work on that.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #92 - Sep 10th, 2006 at 3:24pm
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That article sucked.  All it really said was, "Some guy has a theory, which is this..."  Nowhere did it provide any substantiation for his belief, merely that he had one.

-b0b
(...has beliefs, too, but you don't see those getting printed.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #93 - Sep 10th, 2006 at 4:41pm
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Oh come on now Bob...that's what science is today.  This is the reflextion of post modernism has had on the world and esp the world of science.  It's whatever one person thinks is correct and ok for him/her.  Science is quickly becoming a indiviudalistic movement.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #94 - Sep 13th, 2006 at 7:25pm
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Study finds Neanderthals survived longer

By MALCOLM RITTER, Associated Press Writer Wed Sep 13, 4:12 PM ET

NEW YORK - Neanderthals survived for thousands of years longer than scientists thought, with small lingering bands finding refuge in a massive cave near the southern tip of Spain, new research suggests.
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The work contends that Neanderthals were using a cave in Gibraltar at least 2,000 years later than their presence had been firmly documented anywhere before, researchers said.

"Maybe these are the last ones," said Clive Finlayson of The Gibraltar Museum, who reported the findings Wednesday with colleagues on the Web site of the journal Nature.

The paper says charcoal samples from fires that Neanderthals set in the cave are about 28,000 years old and maybe just 24,000 years old.

Experts are divided on how strong a case the paper makes.

Neanderthals were stocky, muscular hunters in Europe and western Asia who appeared more than 200,000 years ago. They died out after anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe some 35,000 to 40,000 years ago and spread west into Neanderthal territory.

Scientists have long been fascinated by the last days of the Neanderthals. Were they doomed because they couldn't compete with the encroaching modern humans for resources, or because they caught new germs from the moderns, or because of climate change? Did the two groups have much contact, and what kind?

They didn't appear to encounter each other in Gibraltar at Gorham's Cave. More than 5,000 years separate the last traces of the Neanderthals from the earliest evidence of modern humans, Finlayson said. He believes the area near the cave contained small bands of Neanderthals and of advancing moderns at the same time, but over a large and varied landscape. So it's not clear if the two groups ever met, he said.

The Neanderthals probably roamed a large area and used the cave periodically as a place to cook, eat and sleep, he said. The cave has yielded butchered bones of such animals as wild goat and deer, and remains of mussels and shellfish. At the time of the Neanderthals, the Mediterranean Sea was about three miles away; rising sea level has since brought the water to within a few dozen yards.

Experts said the region is a likely place to find the last vestiges of Neanderthals, because it's the tip of a geographic cul-de-sac that leads away from central Europe.

Eric Delson of Lehman College in the Bronx and the American Museum of Natural History, who did not participate in the research, said the paper's 28,000-year-old date seems secure but that its case for Neanderthal presence after that is shaky.

Even the older date is the only clear evidence of Neanderthals anywhere after 30,000 years ago, he said. But there have been prior claims of "the last Neanderthal" that were eventually shot down, and whether this one will hold up remains to be seen, he said.

Other experts are less convinced.

Paul Mellars, a professor of prehistory and human evolution at Cambridge University, said he believes the range of radiocarbon dating evidence in the paper suggests ages more like 31,000 or 32,000 years for the charcoal. Contamination by younger material might have skewed some radiocarbon results toward more recent dates, he observed.

Even with the older dates, the paper would be important because it would represent one of the last Neanderthal occupations in Europe, he said.

But paleoanthropologist Richard Klein of Stanford University said it's questionable whether the charcoal fragments really date Neanderthal presence. Neanderthal artifacts appear to be sparsely distributed in the deposit, and their spatial relationship to the charcoal needs to be specified more clearly, he said.

Finlayson said he's comfortable with the 24,000-year figure and called the 28,000-year estimate conservative. There's no evidence of contamination with younger material and chemical analysis argues against it, he said.

As for the Neanderthal artifacts, he said, their location within the excavated site shows they're associated with the dated charcoal. And there aren't any artifacts from modern humans associated with the charcoal, he said.


You mean something which evolution said was absolute fact has been slightly WRONG?!  I...I am shocked...appalled even.  Here I thought we KNEW that they lived for a short period...I mean we KNEW it.  Now you're saying we're changing out...interpretation of the data we had to come up with a more accurate theory?  That's...that's almost like science or something!!!  Now if they would only look at the background factors they take as objective facts we could be done with evolution forever!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #95 - Sep 18th, 2006 at 5:30pm
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Milky Way's Formation Theory Questioned

Jeanna Bryner
Staff Writer
SPACE.com Mon Sep 18, 1:15 PM ET

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The Milky Way might not have formed through the merger of several smaller galaxies as previously thought, but by some other unknown process, a new study suggests.

Home to our solar system and viewable in our own backyards, this crowd of stars called the Milky Way offers astronomers one of the best chances for understanding how a galaxy forms.

"The Milky Way is the only galaxy in the universe that we can study in detail. Still, we haven't yet understood how it did form," Manuela Zoccali of the Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics at the Pontifical Catholic University of Chile told SPACE.com. "Shedding light on its formation is fundamental to understand how all the galaxies in the universe have formed."

Parts of our galaxy

The Milky Way, often seen from Earth as a hazy halo of stars in the night sky, is a spiral galaxy with several arms of gas, dust and stars, coiling out from a spherical nucleus in the shape of a flattened disk. The starry center is called a bulge because it protrudes from the flattened disk.

Until now, the best theoretical models predicted dwarf galaxies beget larger and larger galaxies, as multiple star packs clumped together or a heftier galaxy started gobbling up its neighbors. If this were the case for the Milky Way, Zoccali said, the stars in the galactic bulge should have once been part of the disk. Over eons, as more galactic mergers occurred, some of the stars should be tugged toward the center to form the bulge.

"We have proved that this is not the case," Zoccali said.

Using the European Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope (VLT) array in Paranal, Chile, an international team of astronomers, led by Zoccali, examined the chemical makeup of 50 giant stars in the direction of the galactic bulge. They discovered the stars at the center of the Milky Way showed distinct element amounts compared to the disk stars, a sign that the two galaxy components formed separately.

"In other words, bulge stars did not originate in the disk and then migrate inward to build up the bulge but rather formed independently of the disk," Zoccali said.

They detailed their findings in the current issue of the journal Astronomy and Astrophysics.

Making stars

In essence, by cracking these chemical codes, the astronomers were able to peer back in time at the stars' births.

Just before a star is born, its dusty neighborhood in space is swirling with interstellar matter. The chemical elements within the matter vary over time and location. So stars born from one batch of dust and gas would hold a different chemical make-up than stars born in another cosmic cloud.

The chemical codes also hold other clues. "What you're really seeing when you look at these chemical fingerprints is a star formation rate, or a star formation history," Verne Smith, at the University of Texas at El Paso, said in a telephone interview.

Two key chemical markers are oxygen and iron. Oxygen is predominantly produced during the explosion of massive, short-lived stars called Type II supernovae, while iron originates in the explosion of longer-lived stars called Type Ia supernovae. As these stars are blown to pieces, they spew their innards into interstellar space where it becomes the seeds for other stars.

Basically, if a star is loaded with oxygen with minimal iron the star may have developed at a lightning-fast rate, scientists explain.

Bulge forms fast

The astronomers found that the stars within the bulge contain more oxygen relative to iron than their counterparts out in the disk, where we reside.

By comparing the chemical compositions of the stars with computer models, the astronomers suggest the galactic bulge formed in less than a billion years, most likely as a result of a series of starbursts when the universe was young.

How did the independent star gangs hook up? "We astronomers really haven't figured out this part yet," Zoccali said.


Oh it formed by some unknown process?!  Brilliant!!! That's science!!! HOT DOG!  Therefore, my theory that it formed from a unicorn and a demon gnome mating is just as reasonable as anything.  Also, when did people start to question the status quo.  I thought we knew everything about the formation of the universe?!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #96 - Sep 18th, 2006 at 7:34pm
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I find that professor's university to be a bit ironic.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #97 - Sep 19th, 2006 at 12:06am
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Well, some people consider "pure" science to be always proving things wrong.  And sure, I think they do question the status quo, its just that most of them are 100% committed to a naturalistic origin, probably withou realizing their bias.
  
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Reply #98 - Oct 24th, 2006 at 6:48pm
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I now believe evolution!!!

http://www.break.com/index/guinness_evolution_ad.html

See vid above.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #99 - Oct 24th, 2006 at 10:04pm
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well now that its presented visually, in a way that COULD NOT be faked... you have to believe.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #100 - Oct 25th, 2006 at 8:56am
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Uh oh, that looks like conclusive evidence to me.  It's time to pack our bags, guys, we're going home.

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Reply #101 - Oct 25th, 2006 at 7:04pm
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Ahh see this is why I love stupid scientists.  Even when they try to be funny they never fully understand what the heck they are talking about.  I will post the story and then comment.

Quote:
Vampires a Mathematical Impossibility, Scientist Says

Sara Goudarzi
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com 1 hour, 43 minutes ago

A researcher has come up with some simple math that sucks the life out of the vampire myth, proving that these highly popular creatures can't exist.

University of Central Florida physics professor Costas Efthimiou's work debunks pseudoscientific ideas, such as vampires and zombies, in an attempt to enhance public literacy. Not only does the public believe in such topics, but the percentages are at dangerously high level, Efthimiou told LiveScience.

Legend has it that vampires feed on human blood and once bitten a person turns into a vampire and starts feasting on the blood of others.

Efthimiou's debunking logic: On Jan 1, 1600, the human population was 536,870,911. If the first vampire came into existence that day and bit one person a month, there would have been two vampires by Feb. 1, 1600.  A month later there would have been four, and so on. In just two-and-a-half years the original human population would all have become vampires with nobody left to feed on.

If mortality rates were taken into consideration, the population would disappear much faster. Even an unrealistically high reproduction rate couldn't counteract this effect.

"In the long run, humans cannot survive under these conditions, even if our population were doubling each month," Efthimiou said. "And doubling is clearly way beyond the human capacity of reproduction."

So whatever you think you see prowling around on Oct. 31, it most certainly won't turn you into a vampire.


I would to state again that this "doctor" is a moron.

1) A vampire's bite doesn't turn the victim into a vampire, only drinking the blood of another vampire from the victim turns that victim into a vampire.  This guy needs to be "accurate in his public literacy" that he's oh so striving to obtain.

2) Vampires aren't stupid.  They feed on humans yes, but they can also drink the blood of other animals and even feed on dead people.  Although they prefer fresh blood as well as the fear induced adrenaline pumping through it.

I again say, that this guy is adding to what he's trying to defeat...pseudo-science.  Not to mention he doesn't even take into account energy vampires which drain life forces from people and still renders them alive, although drained of energy.  This guy needs a better hobby.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #102 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 10:35am
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yeah, the new hobby of finding the cure for cancer and aids, or at least one life-threatening diesease.


i hate "scientists" like this.

waste of talent.
  

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Reply #103 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 11:06am
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It's like saying cycled-cell anemia protects you from malria and therefore is a beneficial mutation.  Yeah it's like saying that cutting off your feet protects you from atheletes foot!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #104 - Oct 28th, 2006 at 9:52pm
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Yeah it's like saying that cutting off your feet protects you from atheletes foot!


Thanks for the tip!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #105 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 6:58pm
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http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/cp_g110402A.xml.html

Quote:
Japanese researchers said Sunday a bottlenose dolphin captured last month has an extra set of fins that could be the remains of back legs, providing further evidence ocean-dwelling mammals once lived on land.

Fishermen captured the four-finned dolphin off the coast of Wakayama prefecture in western Japan on Oct. 28 and alerted the nearby Taiji Whaling Museum, said museum director Katsuki Hayashi.


Ahh science.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #106 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 10:23pm
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What's up with the new avatar, Briney?  It looks like a Wii advertisement with a fruity background.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #107 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 11:41pm
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ya its Wiidiculous, isnt it?

I was watching some trailers for the Wii in class, and in every one, the players were so bloody excited to be playing that i took a clip from it and made a gif. This kid was playing some kinda baseball game and i have no idea what that move is.

hehe
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #108 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 12:09am
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I just want a full body suit controller.  That way I can karate kick b0b in the face over Xbox 1024 LIVE from Colorado Springs to Podunk Michiga.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #109 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 9:38am
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Sorry, Wes, but I doubt they'll make a bodysuit in XXXXXL!

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Reply #110 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 11:44am
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I was over at a new friends house yesterday and saw a commercial for a Wii game called Sadness.  It did make me sad...because people would be excited to play it.  You had to use the wand controller to move your torch to get rid of rats, or use it to slash a guy's throat, or to stab demons.  They made a beautiful model as the player...yet, all I could think of was how most of the games will be excitedly played by Japanese who will wash windows or play tennis or wash windows.  OOO FUN!!!  I hope Nintendo goes almost belly up with the Wii.  I hope it will do worse than the Virtual Boy and Sega Saturn.  And all those people in your class Briney, will be weeping and nash their teeth.  I want the rivers to run white with the Wii, I want morgues filled with bodies with controllers embedded in people's eyes because they couldn't take the gayness anymore.

In conclusion, I don't like the Wii.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #111 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 11:49am
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Briney you posted the story not 3 minutes before I was...however I have a picture!



Yes that's right...rear fins mean legs to scientists.  Just like if a kid has a third eye that means his ancestors did too.  Haven't these people seen mutants before?  Now if the dolphin truly did have legs I would be more inclined to believe in the evolution of the dolphin.  However I just can't see the dolphin be a sea dweller and then a land dweller and then went back.  It's like how evolutionists believe the whale evolved into the cow and then got sick of it and went back to be a bigger whale.  These people, I will give them this, are so hard up to believe their theory so they don't have to accept a more rational one, or at least one that fits more the facts, that they are willing to believe this hard.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #112 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 12:26pm
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British Begin Debate on Killing Disabled Babies

If top British doctors have their way, routinely killing babies born with serious disabilities will be allowed.

Behind this shocking proposal is nothing less than Britain's Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecology, which has called on doctors to consider permitting infanticide in the case of seriously disabled newborn babies. According to Britain�s Sunday Times, geneticists and medical ethicists supported the proposal -� as did the mother of a severely disabled child -� while a prominent children�s doctor described it as "social engineering.�

John Wyatt, consultant neonatologist at University College London hospital, told the Times: "Intentional killing is not part of medical care,� adding that "The majority of doctors and health professionals believe that once you introduce the possibility of intentional killing into medical practice you change the fundamental nature of medicine. It immediately becomes a subjective decision as to whose life is worthwhile.�

If a doctor can decide whether a life is worth living, he told the Times, "it changes medicine into a form of social engineering where the aim is to maximize the benefit for society and minimize those who are perceived as worthless.�

And Simone Aspis of the British Council of Disabled People told the Times: "If we introduced euthanasia for certain conditions it would tell adults with those conditions that they were worth less than other members of society.�

Arguing that what it called "active euthanasia� -- their euphemism for infanticide -- should be considered for the overall good of families, to spare parents the emotional burden and financial hardship of bringing up the sickest babies, the college statement declared: "A very disabled child can mean a disabled family. If life-shortening and deliberate interventions to kill infants were available, they might have an impact on obstetric decision-making, even preventing some late abortions, as some parents would be more confident about continuing a pregnancy and taking a risk on outcome.�

The college�s call that "active euthanasia� of newborns be considered came as part of an inquiry into the ethical issues raised by the policy of prolonging life in newborn babies by the Nuffield Council on Bioethics.

In response to the inquiry, the college stated: "We would like the working party to think more radically about non-resuscitation, withdrawal of treatment decisions, the best interests test and active euthanasia as they are ways of widening the management options available to the sickest of newborns.�

Initially, the inquiry did not address euthanasia of newborns, as this is illegal in Britain, the Times reported, noting that now the college has succeeded in having it considered. Although it says it is not formally calling for active euthanasia to be introduced, it wants the mercy killing of newborn babies to be debated by society.

If doctors in the Netherlands �- where the Times observes mercy killing is permitted for a range of incurable conditions, including severe spina bifida and the painful skin condition called epidermolysis bullosa �- the question may be moot; they say that British doctors are already killing disabled babies.

Dr. Pieter Sauer, co-author of the Groningen Protocol, the Dutch national guidelines on euthanasia of newborns, told the Times that British pediatricians are already performing mercy killings, and says the practice should be done openly.

Sauer, head of the department of pediatrics at the University Medical Centre Groningen, told the Times: "In England they have exactly the same type of patients as we have here. English neonatologists gave me the indication that this is happening.�

As much was admitted by Dr Richard Nicholson, editor of the Bulletin of Medical Ethics, who told the Times he hastened the death of two severely handicapped newborn babies when he was a junior doctor in the 1970s. Speaking of the "pain, distress and discomfort� of severely handicapped babies he said: "I wouldn�t argue against this.�

Others coming out in favor of killing disabled babies were John Harris, a member of the government�s Human Genetics Commission and professor of bioethics at Manchester University and the mother of a baby born with a serious disability. Harris told the Times: "We can terminate for serious fetal abnormality up to term but cannot kill a newborn. What do people think has happened in the passage down the birth canal to make it OK to kill the fetus at one end of the birth canal but not at the other?� he said, obviously referring to partial-birth abortion.

And Edna Kennedy of Newcastle upon Tyne, whose son suffered epidermolysis bullosa, said: "In extremely controlled circumstances, where the baby is really suffering, it should be an option for the mother.�



How freakin' evil will humanity become before the Return?

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #113 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 12:39pm
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Ugh, that is disgusting.

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We can terminate for serious fetal abnormality up to term but cannot kill a newborn. What do people think has happened in the passage down the birth canal to make it OK to kill the fetus at one end of the birth canal but not at the other?�


how can a human even say that?
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #114 - Nov 13th, 2006 at 12:20pm
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This is a pretty good article but I can still pick out the bias of the reporter...or the newspaper.

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So what's with all the dinosaurs?


The world's first Creationist museum - dedicated to the idea that the creation of the world, as told in Genesis, is factually correct - will soon open. Stephen Bates is given a sneak preview and asks: was there really a tyrannosaurus in the Bible?

Monday November 13, 2006
The Guardian

     Dinosaur
The Creation Museum's motto: Prepare to Believe.

Just off the interstate, a couple of junctions down from Cincinnati's international airport, over the state line in rural Kentucky, the finishing touches are being put to an impressive-looking building. When it is finished and open to the public next summer, it may, quite possibly, be one of the weirdest museums in the world.

The Creation Museum - motto: "Prepare to Believe!" - will be the first institution in the world whose contents, with the exception of a few turtles swimming in an artificial pond, are entirely fake. It is dedicated to the proposition that the account of the creation of the world in the Book of Genesis is completely correct, and its mission is to convince visitors through a mixture of animatronic models, tableaux and a strangely Disneyfied version of the Bible story.

Article continues
Its designer, Patrick Marsh, used to work at Universal Studios in Los Angeles and then in Japan before he saw the light, opened his soul to Jesus, and was born anew. "The Bible is the only thing that gives you the full picture," he says. "Other religions don't have that, and, as for scientists, so much of what they believe is pretty fuzzy about life and its origins ... oh, this is a great place to work, I will tell you that."

So this is the Bible story, as truth. Apart from the dinosaurs, that is. As you stand in the museum's lobby - the only part of the building approaching completion - you are surrounded by life-size dinosaur models, some moving and occasionally grunting as they chew the cud.Beside the turtle pool, two animatronic, brown-complexioned children, demurely dressed in Hiawatha-like buckskin, gravely flutter with movement. Behind them lurk two small Tyrannosaurus Rexes. This scene is meant to date from before the Fall of Man and, apparently, dinosaurs.

Theological scholars may have noticed that there are, in fact, no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible - and here lies the Creationists' first problem. Since there are undoubtedly dinosaur bones and since, according to the Creationists, the world is only 6,000 years old - a calculation devised by the 17th-century Bishop Ussher, counting back through the Bible to the Creation, a formula more or less accepted by the museum - dinosaurs must be shoehorned in somewhere, along with the Babylonians, Egyptians and the other ancient civilisations. As for the Grand Canyon - no problem: that was, of course, created in a few months by Noah's Flood.

But what, I ask wonderingly, about those fossilised remains of early man-like creatures? Marsh knows all about that: "There are no such things. Humans are basically as you see them today. Those skeletons they've found, what's the word? ... they could have been deformed, diseased or something. I've seen people like that running round the streets of New York."

Nothing can dent the designer's zeal as he leads us gingerly through the labyrinth of rooms still under construction, with bits of wood, and the odd dinosaur head occasionally blocking our path. The light of keenness shines from the faces of the workers, too, as they chisel out mountain sides and work out where to put the Tree of Life. They greet us cheerily as we pass.

They, too, know they are doing the Lord's Work, and each has signed a contract saying they believe in the Seven Days of Creation theory. Mornings on this construction site start with prayer meetings. Don't think for a minute that this is some sort of crazy little hole-in-the-corner project. The museum is costing $25m (£13m) and all but $3m has already been raised from private donations. It is strategically placed, too - not in the middle of nowhere, but within six hours' drive of two-thirds of the entire population of the US. And, as we know, up to 50 million of them do believe that the Bible's account of Creation is literally true.

We pass the site where one day an animatronic Adam will squat beside the Tree. With this commitment to authenticity, I find myself asking what they are doing about the fig leaf. Marsh considers this gravely and replies: "He is appropriately positioned, so he can be modest. There will be a lamb or something there next to him. We are very careful about that: some of our donors are scared to death about nudity."

The same will go for the scene where Eve is created out of Adam's rib, apparently, and parents will be warned that little children may be scared by the authenticity of some of the scenes. "Absolutely, because we are in there, being faithful to scripture."

A little licence is allowed, however, where the Bible falls down on the details. The depiction of a wall-sized section of Noah's Ark is based, not on the traditional picture of a flat-decked boat, but one designed by navy engineers with a keel and bows, which might, at least, have floated. "You can surmise," says Marsh. When you get inside, there's nifty computer software telling you how they fitted all the animals in, too.

The museum's research scientist, Dr Jason Lisle, has a PhD in astrophysics from the University of Colorado at Boulder. He realised he was a Christian while he was an undergraduate, but didn't spread it around: "People get very emotional about the issue. I don't believe we should ever be obnoxious about our faith. I just kept quiet." And how did he pass the exams? "I never lied, but if I was asked a question about the age of the universe, I answered from my knowledge of the topic, not my beliefs."

The museum's planetarium is his pride and joy. Lisle writes the commentary. "Amazing! God has a name for each star," it says, and: "The sun's distance from earth did not happen by chance." There is much more in this vein, but not what God thought he was doing when he made Pluto, or why.

Now, we are taken to meet Ken Ham, the museum's director and its inspiration. Ham is an Australian, a former science teacher - though not, he is at pains to say, a scientist - and he has been working on the project for much of the past 20 years since moving to the US. "You'd never find something like this in Australia," he says. "If you want to get the message out, it has to be here."

Reassuringly, on the wall outside his office, are three framed photographs of the former Australian cricket captain Steve Waugh - "cricket's never really caught on over here" - and inside, on his bookshelves, is a wooden model of a platypus. On top of the shelves is an array of fluffy poodle toys, as well as cuddly dinosaurs. "Poodles are degenerate mutants of dogs. I say that in my lectures and people present them to me as gifts."

Ham is a large man with a chin-hugging beard like an Old Testament prophet or an old-fashioned preacher, both of which he is, in a way. He lectures all over the world and spent a month in Britain earlier in the summer spreading the message to the faithful in parish halls from Cornwall to Scotland. "We want to try to convince people using observational science," he says. "It's done very gently but forthrightly. We give both sides, which is more than the Science Museum in London does."

This is true in that the Creation museum does include an animatronic evolutionist archaeologist, sitting beside a creationist, at one point. But there's no space for an animatronic Charles Darwin to fit alongside King David and his harp.

On the shelf behind Ham's desk lie several surprising books, including Richard Dawkins' latest. "I've skipped through it. The thing is, Dawkins does not have infinite knowledge or understanding himself. He's got a position, too, it's just a different one from ours. The Bible makes sense and is overwhelmingly confirmed by observable science. It does not confirm the belief in evolution."

But if you believe in the Bible, why do you need to seek scientific credibility, and why are Creationists so reluctant to put their theories to peer review, I ask?

"I would give the same answer as Dawkins. He believes there is no God and nothing you could say would convince him otherwise. You are dealing with an origins issue. If you don't have the information, you cannot be sure. Nothing contradicts the Bible's account of the origins."

We wander across to the bookshop, which, far from being another biblical epic, is done up like a medieval castle, framed with heraldic shields and filled with images of dragons - dragons, you see, being what dinosaurs became. It is full of books with titles such as Infallible Proofs, The Lie, The Great Dinosaur Mystery Solved and even a DVD entitled Arguments Creationists Should Not Use. As we finish the tour, Ham tells us about the museum's website, AnswersInGenesis.org. They are expecting 300,000 visitors a year. "You've not seen anything yet," he says with a smile.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #115 - Nov 13th, 2006 at 1:11pm
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...it may, quite possibly, be one of the weirdest museums in the world.


Wow, that article isn't biased at all.  We need to make a field trip next summer!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #116 - Nov 13th, 2006 at 2:01pm
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Oh most definitely...if we could see Ken Hamm that'd be awesome as well.  Another Creationist met!  Hopefully this one won't go to jail!

From CSE, Dr. Dino, blog:

"We have heard from Dr. Hovind. He is faithfully serving the Savior in the Escambia County Jail. He has already lead at least two men to the Lord. The mother of one of the men called to CSE to thank us for an answer to her years of prayer."

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #117 - Nov 14th, 2006 at 6:51pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #118 - Nov 15th, 2006 at 12:29am
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Quote:
New evidence shows a different meteor killed dinosaurs By Ernest Gill

dpa German Press Agency
Published: Sunday November 12, 2006

By Ernest Gill, Hamburg- In a scenario resembling the dramatic conclusion to a TV crime drama, paleo-forensics experts have produced new evidence to show that the dinosaurs were bumped off by a different meteor than the one that has received the rap for their extinction. The German palaeontologists insist that a mysterious meteor or comet must have done the deadly deed - long after the notorious Yucatan meteor that has hitherto been blamed.


Oh "must have" yep that sounds like science and NOT like some wishful thinking.  What ever happen to "I don't know" being an acceptable answer?  What shape is the Earth?  A long time ago some bumbled head who didn't read the Bible said "oh it's flat".  Why?  He had no clue...he just wanted people to like him and get his name in the paper or yelled out at the street corner.  What should have been done, ooo nope..you thought I was going to say go with the Bible answer...nope, the answer "We don't know yet" should have been said and then scientific study should have been done.  However I will let the flat earthers off on this since the scientific method wasn't put into wide use until much later when Descartes, a Christian, came up with it basically.

Quote:
Until now, it has been accepted generally that the Chicxulub impact off the coast of Mexico 65 million years ago wiped out the dinosaurs. Evidence of the crater left by the giant asteroid or comet has been found under the sea off the coast of Yucatan.


There are craters all over the world...big ones.  Why big just this random one?  Oh that's right...cause it's science.  I understand science changes...I do.  Yet I think we can all agree that there are good theories and there are bad theories.  If we are going to accept all theories as good then I want my theory that dinos were zapped into Jello and I can prove this because there is jello in the world and tree sap is sticky...obviously from the dinos eating themselves by the trees.  My jello theory is just as likely as a comet or big rock killing them if we are just going to randomly guess here.  Scientists see a big hole and say...ope this killed the dinos.  Well why not say Mt. Everest came from space and killed them off as well?

Quote:
But a group of scientists led by Professor Gerta Keller of Princeton and Professor Wolfgang Stinnesbeck of the University of Karlsruhe begged to differ. They uncovered a series of geological clues which suggests the truth may be far more complicated.


Woa wait!  We can't have complicated answers!  Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one!  Science goes along with this all the time, esp when they don't want to debate God.

Quote:
In short, they say that the crater in the Yucatan is too old to have killed off the dinosaurs. Yucatan took the rap for a dino murder that occurred much later.


So did the dinos survive that one?  Man it's almost like if they could survive this huge butt one that everyone thought wiped them about they could do it again...right?  Oh just read the next part.

Quote:
However, no-one has yet found the crater from the "real culprit" impact which ended the Age of Reptiles and caused one of the largest mass extinctions in history.


OK THIS IS BULLCRAP!!!  I can't believe in a loving perfect Being.  But they can believe in a hole that no one has seen?!  F-N BULLCRAP!

Quote:
"There is some evidence that it may have hit in India," says Dr. Keller. The crater, named Shiva by one expert, is estimated to measure 500 kilometres (over 300 miles) in diameter. However, at this time there is little proof of its existence.

Keller says marine microfossils in sediments drilled from the ocean floor show that Chicxulub hit Earth 300,000 years before the mass extinction it was supposed to have caused.

The small marine animals that produced the microfossils escaped virtually unscathed.


Tiny, frail creatures survived?  It almost sounds like that many other things could easily survive as well.  Oh...wait I forgot...we KNOW that a rock killed the dinos.

[/quote]The Chicxulub impact conspired with the Deccan Flood Basalt eruptions in India, a period of prolonged and intense volcanic activity, to nudge species towards the brink, said Dr Keller.

Vast amounts of greenhouse gas were pumped into the atmosphere by the Deccan volcanism over a period of more than a million years. By the time Chicxulub struck, land temperatures were seven to eight degrees Celsius warmer than they had been 20,000 earlier. [/quote]

Welp looks like we don't have to worry about the green house effect.  If it took a million years to kill the dinos and it only caused the Earth to cool to 7 or 8 degrees C (how they know that is un-F-N-knowable) then it shouldn't bother anyone else.  Shoot the industrial revolution only took place some 100 years ago.  We have 999,900+/- years left!  Take that Al Gore!

Quote:
Weakened by these events, species were finally killed off by the second impact.

The previous impact theory was beautifully simple and appealing. Much of its evidence was drawn from a thin layer of rock known as the "KT boundary." This layer is 65 million years old (which is around the time when the dinosaurs disappeared) and is found around the world exposed in cliffs and mines.


It couldn't be cause when you shake a bottle of water and different rocks that the water separates and like minded rocks tend to collect...kinda like a world wide Flood, is it?  Oh that's right...we're still on the big butt rock hitting us.

Quote:
For supporters of the impact theory, the KT boundary layers contained two crucial clues. In 1979, scientists discovered that there were high concentrations of a rare element called iridium, which they thought could only have come from an asteroid. Right underneath the iridium was a layer of spherules, tiny balls of rock which seemed to have been condensed from rock which had been vapourised by a massive impact.


So why couldn't iridium come from the Earth as well?  If we believe asteroid, man that was a fun game...ummm, are made from left over junk that weren't worthy to become planets or old planets...then how come the Earth couldn't have this same element?  Oh I forgot...can't think outside mainstream theory.  That would be NOT relying on AUTHORITY...like me as a Christian does.  Huh?

Quote:
But Keller's team concentrated on a series of rock formations in Mexico where the iridium layer was separated from the spherule layer by many metres of sandstone. Keller found evidence such as ancient worm burrows that suggested that the deposition of the sandstone had been interrupted many times.


NO!  NO!  TELL ME IT'S NOT TRUE!!  Ohh how shall we ever date the fossils if the rocks are in the wrong place...different to what I know them to always be in.  Oh that's right...I can always date the rocks by the fossils that are in them...phew.

Quote:
Her team concluded that there was a gap of some 300,000 years between the deposition of the spherules (from the Chicxulub crater) and the iridium (from an asteroid). Therefore, there must have been two impacts.


You think dinos would have died from old age waiting for another giant rock to hit them again.  After all we know simple life can't form in oxygen rich environments...oh but how could dinos grow that big if the Earth wasn't abundantly rich in oxygen?  Well you say what had happen was....

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #119 - Nov 17th, 2006 at 12:06pm
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=3922...

Man they'll call anything evolution today!

Quote:
Marooned on an island, this group of lions should have died out. Instead, in an evolutionary twist, they've learned to swim and become strong enough to tackle their only prey... giant buffalo

Fearless, ferocious and mightier than the world has ever seen, this is the new breed of super-lion


Well I've been working out and gaining muscle...that must mean I'm evolving.  What's that your child is learning to swim?  No, no, he's evolving so he can swim.  What's that you can fit 6 billiard balls in your mouth and 6 other in various other orifices?  No, you're just evolving!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #120 - Nov 27th, 2006 at 2:25pm
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Watch the double speak in this article:

Quote:
Galactic Baby Boom Influenced Life on Earth

Sara Goudarzi
Staff Writer
SPACE.com Mon Nov 27, 9:00 AM ET

ADVERTISEMENT

The stellar baby boom period of the Milky Way sparked a flowering and crashing of life here on Earth, a new study suggests.   

Some 2.4 billion years ago when the Milky Way started upping its star production, cosmic rays--high-speed atomic particles--started pouring onto our planet, causing instability within the living. Populations of bacteria and algae repeatedly soared and crashed in the oceans.

The researchers counted the amount of carbon-13 within sedimentary rocks, the most common rocks exposed on the Earth's surface. When algae and bacteria were growing in the oceans, they took in carbon-12, so the ocean had an abundance of carbon-13.

Many sea creatures use carbon-13 to make their shells. If there is a lot of carbon-13 stored in rocks, it means life, the origin of which is still unknown, was booming.  Therefore, variations in carbon-13 are a good indicator of the productivity of life on Earth.

The researchers found that the biggest fluctuation in productivity coincided with star formation, which had an affect on Earth's climate and therefore on the productivity of life on our planet.

According to one theory, when a star explodes far away in the Milky Way, cosmic rays penetrate through the Earth's atmosphere and produce ions and free electrons. The released electrons act as catalysts and accelerate the formation of small clusters of sulfuric acid and water molecules, the building blocks of clouds. Therefore, cosmic rays increase cloud cover on Earth, reflecting sunlight and keeping the planet relatively cool.

Although cold and icy times are generally considered unfriendly to life, the data reveals that biological productivity kept oscillating between very high and very low. The reason, the researchers suggest, is that stronger winds during icy epochs stirred the oceans and improved the supply of nutrients in the surface waters.

"The odds are 10,000-to-1 against this unexpected link between cosmic rays and the variable state of the biosphere being just a coincidence, and it offers a new perspective on the connection between the evolution of the Milky Way and the entire history of life over the last 4 billion years," said study author Henrik Svensmark of the Danish National Space Center.

The study was detailed in a recent issue of the journal Astronomische Nachrichten.


This article which list the same thing as being a "study" as well at the same time being a "theory" also reminds me of a picture bob posted recently.  It was the number of pirates in the world can be traced to the rise in temperature.  The more pirates there were the less global warming we had.  Same thing in this article, you have "stars forming" how they know this is anyone's guess; and at the same time you have a boom in bacteria.  Therefore the stars caused bacteria.  Makes sense to me!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #121 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 8:21am
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #122 - Dec 12th, 2006 at 2:09am
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OK "SCIENTIST"  ARE YOU REALLY THAT HARD UP FOR "PROOF" OF EVOLUTION!!!

Quote:
Family Walks on All Fours, May Offer Evolution Insight, Experts Say
James Owen in London
for National Geographic News
March 8, 2006

Five adult siblings who can walk only on all fours have been found in Turkey, researchers say. These human quadrupeds may provide clues to how humans evolved to stand on two feet.

The three sisters and two brothers may offer insight into the way our apelike ancestors moved, according to scientists. Human ancestors are believed to have begun walking on two legs more than three million years ago.

Photo: Kurdish family in Turkey walking on all fours

Enlarge Photo

Email to a Friend
RELATED

    * Photo in the News: Earliest Known Human Ancestor
    * Did Climate Change Trigger Human Evolution?
    * Printable Map: Early Human Migration

(See "Fossil Pushes Upright Walking Back 2 Million Years, Study Says.")

Discovered in a remote area of southern Turkey last summer, the family of ethnic Kurds has sparked a scientific debate, which will be covered in a BBC television documentary that is set to air on March 17 in the United Kingdom. The family's exact location and last name have not been disclosed.

Born with a genetic brain abnormality, two of the sisters and one of the brothers are thought to have only walked on all fours their entire lives. The two other siblings can walk upright for short distances.

The siblings' parents are closely related and have had 19 children in all.

This bizarre case is not a hoax, according to experts who have studied the family.

The cause of the four-limbed locomotion, however, is a bone of contention among the researchers.

Uner Tan is a neurophysiologist—a doctor specializing in the functions of the brain, spinal cord, and nerves—at Cukurova University in Adana, Turkey.

He believes the siblings, who range in age from 18 to 34, are evolutionary throwbacks—a "missing link" to our forebears. (Related reading: "Was Darwin Wrong?")

Meanwhile German geneticists believe the siblings' genetic abnormality may have knocked out the gene responsible for bipedalism, or two-legged walking, in humans.

The German team, led by Stefan Mundlos of the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig, says it has located this gene on a human chromosome. (See a quick overview of human genetics.)

Link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0308_060308_all_fours.html

How many of us did this when we were little!  Oh that means we started our lives as apes and lost ya know...the hair, the bone structure, the DNA...all that!  Come on...you can't seriously expect real people to swallow this.  No I'm not talking about the mindless zombies with Cheeto's orange tint on their wife beaters sitting on their couch getting their remote all greasy as they skip the news about  Operation Northwoods and head directly for Passion to see if Tom is really trapped in that alternate dimension so that he'll miss his wedding and so have to marry Shaneese the troll of the Umlaps!  This is complete and utter BS!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #123 - Dec 12th, 2006 at 8:19am
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Yeah, I fail to see how a genetic mutation caused by incest is somehow proof of evolution.  I guess incest-induced retardation is also a sign of evolution, proving that evolution is retarded, eh?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #124 - Dec 12th, 2006 at 11:30am
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Right!  So if someone is born with an abnormality that makes them think that they are god then we should assume they are less evolved and must treat them with the same respect we would do our grandparents.  Either that or we're evolution racists!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #125 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 8:17pm
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Another Creation Museum Article...this time with 90% less mockingness!!

Quote:
Dinosaurs, humans coexist in U.S. creation museum

By Andrea Hopkins 1 hour, 25 minutes ago

PETERSBURG, Kentucky (Reuters) - Ken Ham's sprawling creation museum isn't even open yet, but an expansion is already underway in the state-of-the art lobby, where grunting dinosaurs and animatronic humans coexist in a Biblical paradise.
ADVERTISEMENT

A crush of media attention and packed preview sessions have convinced Ham that nearly half a million people a year will come to Kentucky to see his Biblically correct version of history.

"I think we'll be surprised at how many people come," Ham said as he dodged dozens of designers working to finish exhibits in time for the May 28 opening.

The $27 million project, which also includes a planetarium, a special-effects theater, nature trails and a small lake, is privately funded by people who believe the Bible's first book, Genesis, is literally true.

For them, a museum showing Christian schoolchildren and skeptics alike how the earth, animals, dinosaurs and humans were created in a six-day period about 6,000 years ago -- not over millions of years, as evolutionary science says -- is long overdue.

While foreign media and science critics have mostly come to snigger at exhibits explaining how baby dinosaurs fit on Noah's Ark and Cain married his sister to people the earth, museum spokesman and vice-president Mark Looy said the coverage has done nothing but drum up more interest.

"Mocking publicity is free publicity," Looy said. Besides, U.S. media have been more respectful, mindful perhaps of a 2006 Gallup Poll showing almost half of Americans believe that humans did not evolve, but were created by God in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Looy said supporters of the museum include evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews and conservative Catholics, as well as the local Republican congressman, Geoff Davis (news, bio, voting record), and his family, who have toured the site.

FROM 'JAWS' TO EDEN

While the debate between creationists and mainstream scientists has bubbled up periodically in U.S. schools since before the Scopes "monkey trial" in nearby Tennessee 80 years ago, courts have repeatedly ruled that teaching religious theory in public schools is unconstitutional.

Ham, an Australian who moved to America 20 years ago, believes creationists could have presented a better case at the Scopes trail if they'd been better educated -- but he's not among those pushing for creation to be taught in school.

Rather than force skeptical teachers to debate creation, Ham wants kids to come to his museum, where impassioned experts can make their case that apparently ancient fossils and the Grand Canyon were created just a few thousand years ago in a great flood.

"It's not hitting them over the head with a Bible, it's just teaching that we can defend what it says," he said.

Ham, who also runs a Christian broadcasting and publishing venture, said the museum's Hollywood-quality exhibits set the project apart from the many quirky Creation museums sprinkled across America.

The museum's team of Christian designers include theme park art director Patrick Marsh, who designed the "Jaws" and "King Kong" attractions at Universal Studios in Florida, as well as dozens of young artists whose conviction drives their work.

"I think it shows (nonbelievers) the other side of things," said Carolyn Manto, 27, pausing in her work painting Ice Age figures for a display about caves in France.

"I don't think it's going to be forcing any viewpoint on them, but challenging them to think critically about their evolutionary views," said Manto, who studied classical sculpture before joining the museum.

Still, Looy is upfront about the museum's mission: to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with nonbelievers.

"I think a lot of people are going to come out of curiosity ... and we're going to present the Gospel. This is going to be an evangelistic center," Looy said. A chaplain has been hired for museum-goers in need of spiritual guidance.

The museum's rural location near the border of Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana places it well within America's mostly conservative and Christian heartland. But the setting has another strategic purpose: two-thirds of Americans are within a day's drive of the site, and Cincinnati's international airport is minutes away.

The project has not been without opposition. Zoning battles with environmentalists and groups opposed to the museum's message have delayed construction and the museum's opening day has been delayed repeatedly.

The museum has hired extra security and explosives-sniffing dogs to counter anonymous threats of damage to the building. "We've had some opposition," Looy said.


Wow...a museum opens that lies to kids about the facts of evolution you never hear of Christians threating to bomb the museum do you?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #126 - Jan 16th, 2007 at 12:59am
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http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyid=2007-01-...

Quote:
A 40,000-year-old skull found in a Romanian cave shows traits of both modern humans and Neanderthals and might prove the two interbred, researchers reported on Monday.

If the findings are confirmed, the skull would represent the oldest modern human remains yet found in Europe.

The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, will add to the debate over whether modern Homo sapiens simply killed off their Neanderthal cousins, or had some intimate interactions with them first.

DNA samples taken from Neanderthal bones suggest there was no mixing, or at least that any Neanderthal genetic contribution did not make it to the modern DNA pool.

But Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St. Louis has in the past found bones that he believes show both modern human and Neanderthal traits, and now he and colleagues have found a skull.


ugh someone field this one... X or Ironman... I know youre around here somewhere!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #127 - Jan 16th, 2007 at 11:49am
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Sorry I've been gone for the past 24 hours because parts of TR have been without power.  Of course that included ME!  AND I'M FREEING!!!  IT'S 34 DEGREES IN MY HOUSE RIGHT NOW!!!

Any who...

The reason why both are found together is because both did live together however the Neanderthals have been proven time and time again to be 100% human...eat that one monkies!!!  The reason why they appear different is because they are extremely old, probably born before or shortly after the Flood.  To suggest that modern man just went and killed their own ancestors is worse that putting your grandparents on floating ice when food is low (good job Eskimos...don't have to worry about your social security funds dwindling that way!).

Also how are they our "cousins"?  I always thought evolutionists chimed that they were our ancestors?  Did we evolve from some alien characters who were lost?

Also what genetic material are they testing here?  Did we find some poor Ne. in a block of ice and the hour and a half movie shows him dealing with the affects of the old man in the new world?  Since these are some 50,000 years old...what genetic material is left?!  If there is some left I think that would add proof to the Earth, or at least its inhabitants being a whole lot younger...oops I can't say that...that's not the party line we scientists have deemed necessary...uhh uhh...if you believe that you are in the same field as flat earth people and holocaust deniers...and you're racists!  He he that did it!

SO in conclusion these findings are total bunk and scientists need to go back to testing out their most basic theories and just buck up and do the work.  But they won't because if they did...they'd find out they were wrong.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #128 - Jan 16th, 2007 at 3:58pm
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Sorry about your power problems.  I was pretty lucky, I only lost power for about 35 minutes yesterday afternoon, and I only know that because I viewed the logs on the battery backup system connected to the server.

Luckily, the server itself (and my PC) stayed up throughout the power outage, but the lack of power killed the Internet connection.  Figures.

For what it's worth, the nasty weather has resulted in absolutely beautiful scenery.  The sun is quite bright this morning and it's sparkling off the glass-like ice on the trees, creating some breathtaking sites.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #129 - Jan 16th, 2007 at 5:27pm
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http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/109-fossils.shtml

Quote:
Boy unearths important horse fossils


Gavin Sutter and his fossil find.


Gavin at work on the dig.
A startling discovery by a young Californian boy has helped fill a key gap in the evolution of the horse.

Gavin Sutter, aged eight, from Auburn, found the prehistoric bones of a horse dating back 15 million years.

Crucially, the remains he found were of a three-toed horse.

Horses are known to have evolved from small five-toed animals into the horses we know today, which have only one toe, and the tiny boney remnants of two others.

Gavin's find fills a crucial gap in the evolutionary path of the horse, as it evolved from a five-toed to effectively a single-toed animal.

The bones have been prepared for display to take pride of place at the Sierra College Natural History Museum, where they will remain a permanent fixture.

Gavin, a keen rock collector, has declared his find "very cool".

Dick Hilton, who is with the museum, was on the expedition which led to the discovery, in July 2006. The expedition had aimed to find middle Miocene 15-million-year-old plant and animal fossils in northern Nevada.

Hilton was joined by scientists George Bromm and Brian Hausback, film-maker Paul Goldsmith, and Gavin's father, Keith Sutter, who is a photographer.

Sutter's wife and their two boys also joined the trip.

The scientists were working under a United States government Bureau of Land Management permit to survey the area for vertebrate fossils.

The expedition took them to remote and wild places near the Black Rock Desert, where they saw lots of wildlife, including coyotes, mustangs, prong-horned antelope, deer, rabbits and big-horned sheep.

Gavin, then seven, found the bones and teeth of the small three-toed horse.

His mother, Cara, found an antler of an early deer-like animal.


The bones that Gavin found.


The team works on the dig.

"The group also found bones from chalicotheres, an animal related to the horse, but which looked more like a combination of horse and giant ground sloth," says Hilton. "It had big grasping claws on the front limbs."

Other bones found belonged to early rhinos, turtles, beavers, canaids (the dog family) and badgers. They also found fossil oak leaves and the winged seed of a maple tree.

"Fifteen million years ago, when these animals roamed Nevada, the Sierra Nevada and many of the mountains along the west coast of North America had not risen to their current elevation," Hilton explains.

"Rains that are now blocked by these mountains found their way to Nevada. Nevada was as lush as California is today but it had wildlife that looked more like the plains of Africa.

"Along with all of the animals already mentioned, there were lions, sabertooth cats, dog-bear, camels and primitive elephants (gomphotheres). There were even redwood forests."

Horses are known to have evolved from rabbit-sized creatures that originally had five toes on each foot. As time went on horses evolved into bigger animals that had to run faster to avoid larger, faster predators. To run faster they evolved fewer toes so that by 15 million years ago they had just three toes on each foot - one large center toe and two smaller ones along the sides.

The modern horse has just one toe on each foot, although remnants of their former toes still exist as vestigial bones that are no longer used. This is similar to the hip bones that whales have, even though they no longer have rear limbs.

A large slab of rock containing the horse bones found by Gavin was excavated and brought back to the laboratory at the Sierra College Natural History Museum.

There, George Bromm carefully prepared the specimen so that the bones and teeth still protruded from the rock, making it an excellent display specimen.

As for Gavin, he can look forward to another day in the sun - showing off possibly one of the best show-and-tell exhibits any kid has ever taken to school. The museum says Gavin will be allowed to take the fossils to school to show fellow students.


Ya cause it can't be a single existing organism.  Nooo it's got to be some deeper, darker conspiracy into evolution.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #130 - Jan 17th, 2007 at 4:13pm
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BAWHA HA HA HA HA HA HA ....*inhale of breath*....HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Quote:
Fact Checking 101
How Skeptic magazine was Duped
by an Environmental Activist Group

by Michael Shermer

In last week’s eSkeptic , we published highlights from a press release issued by PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility), a Washington D.C.-based environmental watchdog group. That press release, dated December 28, 2006, was headlined:

    HOW OLD IS THE GRAND CANYON? PARK SERVICE WON’T SAY
    Orders to Cater to Creationists Makes National Park Agnostic on Geology

The first sentence of the release reads:

    Washington, DC — Grand Canyon National Park is not permitted to give an official estimate of the geologic age of its principal feature, due to pressure from Bush administration appointees.

Unfortunately, in our eagerness to find additional examples of the inappropriate intrusion of religion in American public life (as if we actually needed more), we accepted this claim by PEER without calling the National Park Service (NPS) or the Grand Canyon National Park (GCNP) to check it. As a testimony to the quality of our readers, however, dozens immediately phoned both NPS and GCNP, only to discover that the claim is absolutely false. Callers were told that the Grand Canyon is millions of years old, that no one is being pressured from Bush administration appointees — or by anyone else — to withhold scientific information, and all were referred to a statement by David Barna, Chief of Public Affairs, National Park Service as to the park’s official position. “Therefore, our interpretive talks, way-side exhibits, visitor center films, etc. use the following explanation for the age of the geologic features at Grand Canyon,” the document explains.

    If asked the age of the Grand Canyon, our rangers use the following answer: ‘The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old. The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet.’

Understandably, many of our readers were outraged by both the duplicity of the claim and our failure to fact check it. One park ranger wrote us:

    You’re a day late and a dollar short on this one. As a national park ranger, I found most of PEER’s findings to be bogus. So have others: http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com

A Grand Canyon park interpreter wrote:

    This is incorrect. I have NEVER been told to present non-science based programs. In fact, I received “talking points” demanding that Grand Canyon employees present programs BASED ON SCIENCE and that we must use the scientific version supported by the National Science Foundation and the National Academy of Sciences. As an interpreter I have shared the “creation” story of the Hopi people and the Paiute people because it is culturally relative. I used these stories as a tool to introduce the scientific story. Be confident there are good people running government, too.

One of our readers directly challenged Jeff Ruch, the Executive Director of PEER:

    When I challenged that PEER guy to show me some evidence and provided him evidence to the contrary, he didn’t have much. I would say PEER did more than jump the gun. I’d say they are spreading misinformation.

Another Grand Canyon park interpreter offered this explanation:

    Ruch’s attempts to insinuate a conspiratorial link between the NPS and organized religion are misguided and founded in fervent anti-Christian opposition, not reason or the law. Ruch’s anti-Judeo-Christian bias is evidence by his lack of opposition to GCA’s selling of Native American creation myths. His misinformation campaign aims to tarnish the reputation of the NPS to leverage his position that creationism books should not be sold in the GCA bookstore. I’ve emailed a few of my contacts at GRCA, and so far, all deny any conspiracy and all freely give the canyon’s age in education programs (as does all official GRCA print material). I’ll post updates as information becomes available. Until then, don’t believe everything you read.

The reference to the creationism book being sold in the Grand Canyon bookstore — Grand Canyon: A Different View by Tom Vail — is true. It is sold in the “inspiration” section of the bookstore, alongside other books of myth and spirituality. In any case, the story is an old one now, and completely irrelevant to the claim that NPS employees are withholding information about the age of the canyon, and/or are being pressured to do so by Bush administration appointees.

Embarrassed and angered by all of this, I promptly phoned Jeff Ruch myself and inquired what evidence he has to support this claim. He initially pointed to the creationism book and the fact that the NPS has failed to address numerous challenges to the sale of same in their bookstore. When I pointed out that this is irrelevant to the claim in the press release, he then reminded me of the biblical passages that have been posted at places along the rim of the canyon. Again, I admonished, this is not evidence for his central claim. We went round and round on the phone until I finally gave up and hung up, convinced that he simply made up the claim out of whole cloth.

Not wishing to simply call Ruch a liar, and allowing myself to calm down a bit, I emailed him and asked:

    Can you tell us who in the Bush administration put pressure on park service employees? Can you name one person in the GCNP staff who says that they are not permitted to give the official estimate of the age of the canyon?

He responded:

      1. I do not know — it is at the Director’s level or above. We have been trying to find out for three years.
      2. Julie Cart, Los Angeles Times.

I contacted Julie Cart at the Los Angeles Times, who was out of town on assignment, and got her editor, Frank Clifford, on the phone. Clifford knew all about the creationism book and the biblical passages on the rim of the canyon, but said that he had heard nothing about this new claim of Bush administration appointees silencing park service staff, and that if Julie knew of such a thing the Times would be most interested in following up with the story. I then reached Julie by email, who said that she too knew of no such silence on the part of park staffers regarding the age of the canyon.

Once again outraged and enraged , I emailed Ruch to ask him why he referenced Cart, who denied his central claim. He responded:

    I referred you to Julie because of the response she got from the superintendent’s office when she covered the issue earlier — not for any new claim.

Thanks a lot. I wasted several hours tracking down that false lead. Now at my wit’s end with this guy, I point blank asked him if he made it all up. He responded:

    The interpretive staff at GCNP we are working with do not want to be identified and have gone into deep underground as the atmosphere at the park is now somewhat volatile.

Well, it would have been nice (not to mention ethical) if he would have said so in the first place. (I have now wasted about 10 hours of research time on this instead of other projects.) The referencing of sources who wish to remain anonymous is quite common in journalism and, in fact, there are laws protecting whistleblowers . The fact that no such reference was made until I pointedly accused Ruch of flatout lying makes me, well, skeptical of this explanation. His final statement to me doesn’t make me any less skeptical:

    We are issuing an amended release today that

      1. deletes reference to what interpretive staff can and cannot say and
      2. features the NPS official statement that they provide geological information to the public.

Then why did PEER issue that statement in the first place? In my opinion, this is why:

PEER is an anti-Bush, anti-religion liberal activist watchdog group in search of demons to exorcise and dragons to slay. On one level, that’s how the system works in a free society, and there are plenty of pro-Bush, pro-religion conservative activist watchdog groups who do the same thing on the other side. Maybe in a Hegelian process of thesis-antithesis-synthesis we find truth that way; at least at the level of talk radio. But journalistic standards and scholarly ethics still hold sway at all levels of discourse that matter, and to that end I believe we were duped by an activist group who at the very least exaggerated a claim and published it in order to gain notoriety for itself, or worse, simply made it up.

To that end I apologize to all of our readers for not fact checking this story before publishing it on eSkeptic and www.skeptic.com. Shame on us. But shame on you too, Mr. Ruch, and shame on PEER, for this egregious display of poor judgment and unethical behavior.
Michael Shermer
Publisher, Skeptic magazine
Executive Director, the Skeptics Society
mshermer@skeptic.com

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-01-17.html


And who was it that says Shermer and his cronnies at Skeptic Magazine should just call themselves something different than their name sake?  "Scientists" were actively looking for examples of "religion" in the public area.  Read that first paragraph and tell me that science isn't subjective!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #131 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 1:21am
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http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.Blogs&ContentRecord_...

Quote:
The Weather Channel’s most prominent climatologist is advocating that broadcast meteorologists be stripped of their scientific certification if they express skepticism about predictions of manmade catastrophic global warming. This latest call to silence skeptics follows a year (2006) in which skeptics were compared to "Holocaust Deniers" and Nuremberg-style war crimes trials were advocated by several climate alarmists.


witch-hunt!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #132 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 3:18am
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See and I think we should take down Amanenejad just because he brought back the ability to call people Holocaust deniers now.

Also let me break down the way these "scientists" are trying to argue.

Person 1 - Global warming is real we can see it in the dramatic weather changes.
Person 2 - No it's not these are normal weather patterns that are just occurring with different influxes like it's gone up and down over the past thousands of years.
Person 1 - YOU'RE A MORON AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE A NAZI AND A RACIST!

In Person 1's mind he has won the debate.  Is this what we are suppose to be teaching our schools to our children?  Is this the science we champion to take place of our religious views?  Is this the controlling factor that will shape and change our lives more than any other establishment?

Then all I'd have to say....oh my....science!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #133 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 9:14am
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Science supposedly isn't religion, but this certainly sounds like the Spanish Inquisition to me.

-b0b
(...nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #134 - Jan 20th, 2007 at 9:38am
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http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=88249076

Now c (pun intended if you read the story) this is real science right here.

Sound at Mach c!!!!

No dogmatic statements.  No quoting of other scientists to support your theory.  No imaging necessary.  No X number of years to see proof.  And no falsifying of data to try to prove a dumb theory.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #135 - Jan 22nd, 2007 at 7:03pm
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Quote:
Dinosaur may have resembled the biplane

By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, AP Science Writer 1 hour, 36 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - When the Wright Brothers first took to the sky in a biplane, they were using a design nature may have tried 125 million years earlier. A new study of one of the earliest feathered dinosaurs suggests it may have had upper and lower sets of wings, much like the biplanes of early aviation. Today, the biplane is widely considered an old-fashioned rarity.
ADVERTISEMENT

And the design is no longer seen in birds, though it's not clear if it was a step on the way to modern birds or a dead end, tested by nature and discarded.

The intriguing possibility of a biplane dinosaur — Microraptor gui — is suggested by Sankar Chatterjee of Texas Tech University in this week's online issue of Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences.

Microraptor was described by Xing Xu of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in 2003 as having aerodynamic feathers on both its arms and legs. Xu suggested at the time that it glided, extending its legs backward so its wings were arranged one behind the other, like a dragonfly.

But that would be aerodynamically inefficient for a feathered creature, Chatterjee concluded, noting that the feathers on the legs would not face forward.

Instead, he suggested, the legs of the two-pound creature could have been held below the body in flight, creating two staggered wing sections, the upper one slightly ahead of the lower one.

One other flying dinosaur, Pedopenna, also had feathers on its legs, Chatterjee said, and modern raptors such as falcons have short feathers on their upper legs which reduce air resistance as they fly.

"Aircraft designers have mimicked many of nature's flight 'inventions,' usually inadvertently," Chatterjee wrote. "Now, it seems likely that Microraptor invented the biplane 125 million years before the Wright 1903 Flyer."

Xu, who said a variety of reconstructions have been suggested since the original one, called Chatterjee's proposal "likely," but added that "we really need to work painstakingly to check all details and have an accurate reconstruction, and then we can compare different models in computer or even in wind tunnel, which we are planning to do."

"Microraptor is a critical species in understanding the origin of flight," added Xu, who was not associated with Chatterjee's research team.

Matthew Carrano, curator of dinosaurs at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, said the question focuses on what the legs can do, and it's a difficult problem because the fossils are flat and require interpretation as to what they would have looked like in three dimensions.

Carrano, who also was not part of Chatterjee's research team, said this creature was probably a side branch rather than a stage evolution had to pass through on the way to today's birds.

"It's difficult to see how this animal does anything well, it seems so ungainly," Carrano said. "It forces us to think creatively because it's so far off the beaten path."

There are often such experiments that fall by the wayside, he said.

"The important thing is, because we've now got all these feathered dinosaurs to look at, it has kind of opened the gates a bit to speculating about how flight evolved," Carrano said.

Chatterjee's research was funded by Texas Tech University.



And maybe Penguins and Ostriges were the SR-71 Blackbirds of the water!

So what scientists here are telling us is that dinosaurs stopped being lizards, for whatever reason, and suddenly formed 2 sets of wings, all of a sudden.  Then over time they found that the single wing design was much better.  Then they developed anti-gravity devices and sored into outer space!  Ok that last part was mine...but I give it a few million years and just watch the birds take off towards Alpha Centari.

Freakin ridiculous!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #136 - Jan 29th, 2007 at 1:34am
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Because Fox News represents the "conservative" and "Christian" aspect of America...they have posted a separated Science section called "Evolution and Paleontology" page!

http://www.foxnews.com/science/evolution/index.html

How fun!  Where's the Creationist articles?  Ha ha ha ...ya I know...too much to expect.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #137 - Jan 29th, 2007 at 4:15pm
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Quote:
Study: Surface of Mars Devoid of Life

Ker Than
Staff Writer
SPACE.com 2 hours, 43 minutes ago

This story was updated at 11:50 am EST.
ADVERTISEMENT

The last refuge for Martian life, if it exists, might be deep below the planet's surface and beyond the reach of any currently planned missions, according to a new study.

After mapping cosmic radiation levels at various depths on Mars, researchers have concluded that any life within the first several yards of the planet's surface would be killed by lethal doses of cosmic radiation.

The finding will be detailed in the Jan. 30 issue of the journal Geophysical Research Letters.


This just in...people go to strip clubs to watch women take off their clothes.  Also a story developing that when a picture is taken...it shows what you were pointing the camera at.  Later...what could be in your house hold poison...that could kill you!!!

Although I have to give it up to the story for suggesting that life still could live under the surface...go you.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #138 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 12:46am
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http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Quote:
No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.


Good read.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #139 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 8:04am
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It's 20 degrees below zero and they want to talk about global warming?  Pssh!

-b0b
(...whatever.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #140 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 7:42pm
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=4344...


Quote:
Yesterday at Mantua, in an amazing echo of that heartrending story, archaeologists revealed the discovery of a couple locked in a tender embrace, one that has endured for more than 5,000 years.

The find was unearthed by experts digging at a neolithic site at a less than romantic industrial estate. Scientists are to examine the skeletons to try to establish how old they were when they died and how long they have been buried.

One theory being examined is that the man was killed and the woman then sacrificed so that his soul would be accompanied in the after life.


Flood victims? Flood as in THE flood?

meh.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #141 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 7:46pm
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You might have something there, Briney.

I ran into Brandon at the restaurant he's working at in Kalamazoo and he asked me to pass along his greetings.  We'll have to get together and pay him a visit one of these days.

-b0b
(...thought he'd mention it.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #142 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 8:37pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/06/kenya.fossildebate.ap/index.html

Quote:
Dinosaur fossils and a bone from an early human ancestor, dating back 7 million years, will also be on show along with the bones of short-necked giraffes and elephants whose tusks protrude from their lower jaws.

They provide the clearest and unrivaled record yet of evolution and the origins of man, say scientists.

But the highlight will be the 5-foot-3 Turkana Boy, who died at age 12 and whose skeleton had been preserved in marshland before its discovery.

It will form the center stage of the exhibition to be launched in July following a $10.5 million renovation of the National Museums of Kenya, financed by the European Union. The EU says it has no concerns over the displays and that the museum was free to exhibit what it wished.

Followers of creationism believe in the literal truth of the Genesis account in the Bible that God created the world in six days. Bishop Adoyo believes the world was created 12,000 years ago, with man appearing 6,000 years later. He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years.

Adoyo's evangelical coalition is the only religious group voicing concern about the exhibition.


bah! A day is a 1000 years argument!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #143 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 10:06pm
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I think what makes that article more biased is that last line "only one complaining".  Just because it might be only one to know about it in that area doesn't make it right...jerks.

Me:  So I was on Main Street yesterday...
Bishop:  Liar!!
Me:  No, I really was!
Bishop:  You lie.  I doubt your truth telling abilities!
Me:  Why?
Bishop:  Because not only has Main Street not been around for a thousand years...you aren't that old!!!
Me: Doh!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #144 - Feb 9th, 2007 at 11:20am
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Quote:
Rarely seen 'living fossil' shark caught off Tokyo
Wed Feb 7, 12:22 PM ET


A goblin shark -- a rarely seen species often called a "living fossil" -- was caught alive in Tokyo Bay but died after being put on display, an aquarium said.

The grey, long-nosed shark was caught in fishermen's nets around 150 to 200 metres (500 to 650 feet) deep. It was discovered by officials of the Tokyo Sea Life Park when they took a boat with local fishermen on January 25.

"We were able to bring it to the aquarium alive and show it to the public," said an official at the park.

But the shark died on the morning of January 27.

"Dead goblin sharks are caught from time to time, but it is rarely seen alive. We were able to document the way the shark swims. After it died, we dissected the specimen for further studies," he said.

The shark was about 1.3 metres long.

Resembling pre-historic sharks, goblin sharks live on deep sea bottoms. Little is known about their lives.



The pictures don't want to load as images, so click the links.








-b0b
(...thinks they might not really be all that old.  Durrr.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #145 - Feb 9th, 2007 at 11:35am
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I think "living fossils" is just another proof of how evolution is wrong.  How can dinosaurs turn into birds and yet we have this shark still around today like how is was 165 million years ago.  Same this with the sealacamp (sp?).  Shouldn't these sea creatures turned into...Flamingos or Hillary Clinton by now?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #146 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 2:28pm
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11145-christian-faith-in-the-iotheri-good-...

This was on Fark, so you guys probably already saw it. Made my blood boil though.

Quote:
Flocks of the Christian faithful in the US will this Sunday hold special services celebrating Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The idea is to stand up to creationism, which claims the biblical account of creation is literally true, and which is increasingly being promoted under the guise of "intelligent design". Proponents of ID say the universe is so complex it must have been created by some unnamed designer.

Support for "Evolution Sunday" has grown 13 per cent to 530 congregations this year, from the 467 that celebrated the inaugural event last year. Organisers see it as increasing proof that Christians are comfortable with evolution.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #147 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 2:40pm
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Well,  I guess you can't win them all.

-b0b
(...sighs.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #148 - Feb 10th, 2007 at 6:32pm
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Best most of those are Catholics...cause why think if the Pope says so.

The pope says he is infallible
The pope says evolution is true
Therefore evolution is true.

Catholic logic at it's best!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #149 - Feb 12th, 2007 at 5:20am
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54131

Quote:
A science student in Kentucky says when the Bible records God spoke, and things were created, that's just what happened, and he can support that with scientific experiments.

"If God spoke everything into existence as the Genesis record proposes, then we should be able to scientifically prove that the construction of everything in the universe begins with a) the Holy Spirit (magnetic field); b) Light (an electric field); and c) that Light can be created by a sonic influence or sound," Samuel J. Hunt writes on his website.


interesting

/fark
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #150 - Feb 12th, 2007 at 9:51am
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But if that guy thinks the Holy Spirit is a magnetic field...he's a moron.

I do like however that he's doing a few things.

1)  He's making a prediction (that God exists).
2)  Those predictions are leading to a gathering of facts (where certain things came from).
3)  That gathering of facts are leading him to make other predictions (since A happen B will happen).

And what do you call the following all wrapped up?!

SCIENCE!

Not a pseudo-science like "scientists" want to call creation study.  Their number one response always is..."well it never makes predictions so it's useless and a theory that doesn't make predictions isn't a science!"  Well I've never bought this argument because in any debate you would show proof for your argument and then predict what would happen.

So put that in your pipe that came from rain on a rock 6 billion years ago...and that rock came from nothing....and smoke it!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #151 - Feb 12th, 2007 at 1:06pm
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Where does he get the idea that the Holy Spirit is a "magnetic force?"  That's just retarded.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #152 - Feb 12th, 2007 at 3:51pm
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece

Quote:
When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works. We were treated to another dose of it recently when the experts of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued the Summary for Policymakers that puts the political spin on an unfinished scientific dossier on climate change due for publication in a few months’ time. They declared that most of the rise in temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to man-made greenhouse gases.

The small print explains “very likely” as meaning that the experts who made the judgment felt 90% sure about it. Older readers may recall a press conference at Harwell in 1958 when Sir John Cockcroft, Britain’s top nuclear physicist, said he was 90% certain that his lads had achieved controlled nuclear fusion. It turned out that he was wrong. More positively, a 10% uncertainty in any theory is a wide open breach for any latterday Galileo or Einstein to storm through with a better idea. That is how science really works.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #153 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 9:41am
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Evolution Up For A Vote Again In Kansas


Clarence Darrow (left) and William Jennings Bryan, in Dayton, Tenn., at the 1925 Scopes "monkey" trial – the most famous of legal clashes over the theory of evolution, involving biology teacher John Scopes


(AP) Anti-evolution science standards for Kansas' public schools were doomed by a shift of power on the State Board of Education after last year's elections.

The new board, with a 6-4 majority of Democrats and moderate Republicans in control, scheduled a debate for 4 p.m. Tuesday on a new set of proposed science standards, the fifth set of guidelines in only eight years. Parties on both sides anticipated the board would dump the standards adopted in November 2005.

Those standards, backed by intelligent design advocates, suggest important evolutionary concepts - like a common origin for all life on Earth and changes in one species leading to a new one - are controversial and challenged by new evidence. Such statements defied mainstream science and brought Kansas international ridicule.

An alternative, drafted by scientists and educators, would delete such language and treat evolution as well-supported by research. It also would rewrite the standards' definition of science to specifically limit it to the search for natural explanations for what's observed in the universe.

But the board's swing back to mainstream scientific views wasn't likely to settle the issue, given many Kansans' religious objections and other misgivings about evolution, even 198 years after British naturalist Charles Darwin's birth, which was Monday.

"I don't think this issue is going to go away. I think it's going to be around forever," said board Chairman Bill Wagnon, a Topeka Democrat who supports evolution-friendly standards.

Last year, other states saw legal disputes or political, legislative or school debates over how evolution should be taught, including California, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Ohio, Nevada and South Carolina.

But none have inspired attention - or comedians' jokes - like Kansas has. A conservative-led state board deleted most references to evolution in rewriting the standards in 1999; two years later, a less conservative board returned to evolution-friendly standards.

Conservative Republicans skeptical of evolution had a 6-4 majority when the standards came up for review again in 2005. But moderate Republicans captured two seats from conservatives in GOP primaries last year, guaranteeing a return to evolution-friendly guidelines.

"There's this, I think, political agenda to just ensure that evolution is the driving, underlying notion that has to be accepted in Kansas science standards in order for Kansas to keep its head up in the world, which is just bizarre," said board member Ken Willard, a Hutchinson Republican who supported the 2005 standards.

The standards are used to develop tests that measure how well students learn science. Decisions about what's taught remain with 296 local school boards, but both sides say the state guidelines will have some influence in classrooms, as teachers strive to see their students do well on the tests.


That is easily the most biased article I have ever read.  What a pathetic excuse for journalism.  Once again, they treat evolution as "the only scientific theory" and intelligent design as little more than religious conjecture.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #154 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 12:48pm
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Study: Chimps may have used 'hammers' 4,300 years ago
POSTED: 5:17 p.m. EST, February 12, 2007
Story Highlights
• Stone "hammers" dating back 4,300 years may have been used by chimps
• The hammers, about the size of cantaloupes, were found in West Africa
• Anthropologist skeptical of findings, calls for more evidence
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- Chimpanzees may have been using stone "hammers" as long as 4,300 years ago, an international research team, led by archaeologist Julio Mercader of the University of Calgary, Canada, said Monday.

The researchers uncovered the hammers, in the West African country Ivory Coast. It would be the earliest known use of tools by chimpanzees.

The hammers were used to crack nuts, a behavior still seen in chimps in that area, the researchers said in a paper in the online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The finding may indicate that a "chimpanzee stone age" began in ancient times, the researchers say.

The earliest reports of stone tool use by chimpanzees in this area date to the writings of Portuguese explorers in the 1600s.

The stones were about the size of cantaloupes with patterns of wear indicating use to crack nuts. The rocks would have been too large for human hands, but about right for the larger, stronger hands of chimpanzees, the researchers said.

"It's not clear whether we hominins invented this kind of stone technology, or whether both humans and the great apes inherited it from a common forebear," Mercader said in a statement.

But, he added, there were not any farmers living in this region 4,300 years ago, so it is unlikely chimpanzees picked it up by imitating villagers.

Others are not so sure.

The tools may predate farming in the area but not necessarily human contact, said anthropologist Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. There were early human hunter-gatherers in the region at the time, he said.

If chimps and early humans shared this technology with a common ancestor between 5 million and 7 million years ago, there should be sites with chimp debris going back 5 million years and the earliest human stone tool sites should show the kinds of debris found at the chimp sites, Ambrose said: "They absolutely do not."

Some of the hammers also had starch residue on them, mostly from types of nuts that are still eaten by chimpanzees, but not humans. Some of the starch was also associated with tubers but the researchers interpreted that as "background noise" probably picked up in the ground.

Skeptical of the starch findings was anthropologist Jeanne Sept, dean of faculties at Indiana University.

"Their interpretations of the starch grains recovered from the specimens are incomplete, and somewhat circular," she said. "For example, they do not describe which surfaces of the rock fragments the starch grains were obtained from, which makes it difficult to judge whether the grains were left on the tools as a result of tool-use, or if the grains merely naturally stuck to the stones after they became buried in the soil."

"They assert that starch grains from nuts were behaviorally significant, while they decide that starch grains identified as yam roots are 'background noise' but give no justification for that," she added. "They may in fact be dismissing or ignoring evidence that does not match their chimp-nut interpretation of the site."

"It may be premature to accept the range of their claims until further evidence is presented," Sept concluded.

Mercader's research was funded primarily by the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany; Canada Research Chairs program, Canada Foundation for Innovation and the University of Calgary.


I wonder if this is like the false Peking Man...where hammers and stone tools were found in a cave by some monkey bones.  Scientists attributed the tools to the monkeys as the makers.  However the monkeys heads were bashed in and normal human remains were found later in a deeper recess of the cave.  What were the monkeys knocking their own skulls in and eating their own brain?!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #155 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 4:24pm
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I think the real issue about those chimps is whether or not using tools declares them as some kind of half human.  However, there are many other animals that use "tools" like:

     Birds, bees, beavers etc. building nests.
     Woodpeckers using sticks to pry out insects.
     Green Herons dropping an object in water as bait for fish.
       Vultures cracking eggs open with rocks.
       Elephants using a branch as a flyswatter.

But you don't here anything about these becuase it doesn't fit the human evolutionary tree.  They make it sound like tool use (intelligence) is something that evolved in primates, but apparently it must have evolved many times in other animals indenpendently at about the same time. Tongue

Also, the chimps used hammers in the past, but they don't do it in the present?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #156 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 4:41pm
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Also, the chimps used hammers in the past, but they don't do it in the present?


because they turned into humans, silly!

Oh and left some behind that did not want to become human.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #157 - Feb 13th, 2007 at 4:52pm
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You know I've been wanting to grow wings for the longest time.  Do you think I could do so?  If I wanted it really really bad?

I'd so leave you feeble minded "homo sapien spaiens" behind!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #158 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 2:30pm
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Look another article that PROVES that since monkeys use tools that we evolved from them!

Quote:
Hunting chimps may change view of human evolution

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor 1 hour, 37 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Chimpanzees have been seen using spears to hunt bush babies, U.S. researchers said on Thursday in a study that demonstrates a whole new level of tool use and planning by our closest living relatives.
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Perhaps even more intriguing, it was only the females who fashioned and used the wooden spears, Jill Pruetz and Paco Bertolani of Iowa State University reported.

Bertolani saw an adolescent female chimp use a spear to stab a bush baby as it slept in a tree hollow, pull it out and eat it.

Pruetz and Bertolani, now at Cambridge University in Britain, had been watching the Fongoli community of savanna-dwelling chimpanzees in southeastern Senegal.

The chimps apparently had to invent new ways to gather food because they live in an unusual area for their species, the researchers report in the journal Current Biology.

"This is just an innovative way of having to make up for a pretty harsh environment," Pruetz said in a telephone interview. The chimps must come down from trees to gather food and rest in dry caves during the hot season.

"It is similar to what we say about early hominids that lived maybe 6 million years ago and were basically the precursors to humans."

Chimpanzees are genetically the closest living relatives to human beings, sharing more than 98 percent of our DNA. Scientists believe the precursors to chimps and humans split off from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago.

Chimps are known to use tools to crack open nuts and fish for termites. Some birds use tools, as do other animals such as gorillas, orangutans and even naked mole rats.

But the sophisticated use of a tool to hunt with had never been seen.

Pruetz thought it was a fluke when Bertolani saw the adolescent female hunt and kill the bush baby, a tiny nocturnal primate.

But then she saw almost the same thing. "I saw the behavior over the course of 19 days almost daily," she said.

PLANNING AND FORESIGHT

The chimps choose a branch, strip it of leaves and twigs, trim it down to a stable size and then chew the ends to a point. Then they use it to stab into holes where bush babies might be sleeping.

It is not a highly successful method of hunting. They only ever saw one chimpanzee succeed in getting a bush baby once. The apes mostly eat fruit, bark and legumes.

Part of the problem is this group of chimps is shy of humans, and the females, who seem to do most of this type of hunting, are especially wary. "I am willing to bet the females do it even more than we have seen," she said.

Pruetz noted that male chimps never used the spears. She believes the males use their greater strength and size to grab food and kill prey more easily, so the females must come up with other methods.

"That to me was just as intriguing if not even more so," Pruetz said.

The spear-hunting occurred when the group was foraging together, again unchimplike behavior that might produce more competition between males and females, she said.

Maybe females invented weapons for hunting, Pruetz said.

"The observation that individuals hunting with tools include females and immature chimpanzees suggests that we should rethink traditional explanations for the evolution of such behavior in our own lineage," she concluded in her paper.

"The multiple steps taken by Fongoli chimpanzees in making tools to dispatch mammalian prey involve the kind of foresight and intellectual complexity that most likely typified early human relatives."


So since females hunted does that mean they should run the world now?  Also couldn't we have evolved from lions as well since they hold their food with their paws.  Maybe we're a product of a money and a lion.  A Lonkey or a Mion!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #159 - Feb 24th, 2007 at 6:28pm
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http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjI4NTc0YWMzNTA3ZjRmYmJiMDRjNmI5MGEwZTFhM2E...

Quote:
This Sunday, Al Gore will probably win an Academy Award for his global-warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth, a riveting work of science fiction.

The main point of the movie is that, unless we do something very serious, very soon about carbon dioxide emissions, much of Greenland’s 630,000 cubic miles of ice is going to fall into the ocean, raising sea levels over twenty feet by the year 2100.

Where’s the scientific support for this claim? Certainly not in the recent Policymaker’s Summary from the United Nations’ much anticipated compendium on climate change. Under the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s medium-range emission scenario for greenhouse gases, a rise in sea level of between 8 and 17 inches is predicted by 2100. Gore’s film exaggerates the rise by about 2,000 percent.

Even 17 inches is likely to be high, because it assumes that the concentration of methane, an important greenhouse gas, is growing rapidly. Atmospheric methane concentration hasn’t changed appreciably for seven years, and Nobel Laureate Sherwood Rowland recently pronounced the IPCC’s methane emissions scenarios as “quite unlikely.”
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #160 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 6:48am
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070301103112.htm

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Scientists have discovered a large area thousands of square kilometres in extent in the middle of the Atlantic where the Earth’s crust appears to be missing. Instead, the mantle - the deep interior of the Earth, normally covered by crust many kilometres thick - is exposed on the seafloor, 3000m below the surface.

Marine geologist Dr Chris MacLeod, School of Earth, Ocean and Planetary Sciences said: "This discovery is like an open wound on the surface of the Earth. Was the crust never there? Was it once there but then torn away on huge geological faults? If so, then how and why?"



Maybe where the water broke out during the flood?

Genesis 7:11

Quote:
When Noah was six hundred years old, the flood started. On the seventeenth day of the second month of the year the underground springs split open, and the clouds in the sky poured out rain.


who knows!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #161 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 12:17pm
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Geez Briney how can you take a theory and make predictions are you trying to make Creationism/I.D. into science?  Man than what would happen to all the scientists out there claiming that it's pseudo-science.

I wonder what Richard Dawkins thinks of this?  If he exists!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #162 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 1:00pm
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Good find, Briney!

I'm working on a creation science series with my teen class at church for a few weeks now and I think I'll throw this into next week's lesson!

-b0b
(...can't wait until it's DINOSAUR time!  Rawr!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #163 - Mar 14th, 2007 at 9:49pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #164 - Mar 29th, 2007 at 6:02pm
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Study: Dinosaur demise didn't spur species

By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer 2 hours, 5 minutes ago

NEW YORK - The big dinosaur extinction of 65 million years ago didn't produce a flurry of new species in the ancestry of modern mammals after all, says a huge study that challenges a long-standing theory.
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Scientists who constructed a massive evolutionary family tree for mammals found no sign of such a burst of new species at that time among the ancestors of present-day animals.

Only mammals with no modern-day descendants showed that effect.

"I was flabbergasted," said study co-author Ross MacPhee, curator of vertebrate zoology at the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

At the time of the dinosaur demise, mammals were small, ranging in size between shrews and cats. The long-held view has been that once the dinosaurs were gone, mammals were suddenly free to exploit new food sources and habitats, and as a result they produced a burst of new species.

The new study says that happened to some extent, but that the new species led to evolutionary dead ends. In contrast, no such burst was found for the ancestors of modern-day mammals like rodents, cats, horses, elephants and people.

Instead, they showed an initial burst between 100 million about 85 million years ago, with another between about 55 million and 35 million year ago, researchers report in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

The timing of that first period of evolutionary development generally agrees with the conclusions of some previous studies of mammal DNA, which argue for a much earlier origin of some mammal lineages than the fossil record does.

The second burst had shown up in the fossil record, MacPhee said. But he said the new study explains why scientists have been unable to find relatively modern-looking ancestors of the creatures known from that time: without any evolutionary boost from the dinosaur demise, those ancestors were still relatively primitive.

Some experts praised the large scale of the new evolutionary tree, which used a controversial "supertree" method to combine data covering the vast majority of mammal species. It challenges paleontologists to find new fossils that can shed light on mammal history, said Greg Wilson, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science.

William J. Murphy of Texas A&M University, who is working on a similar project, said no previous analysis had included so many mammal species.

But, "I don't think this is the final word," he said.

The study's approach for assigning dates was relatively crude, he said, and some dates it produced for particular lineages disagree with those obtained by more updated methods.

So as for its interpretation of what happened when the dinosaurs died off, "I'm not sure that conclusion is well-founded," Murphy said.

John Gittleman, a study co-author and director of the University of Georgia Institute of Ecology, said the researchers considered a range of previously reported dates for when various lineages split. They found the overall conclusions of the study were not significantly affected by which dates they chose, he said.

Researchers should now look at such things as the rise of flowering plants and a cooling of the worldwide climate to explain why ancestors of present-day mammals took off before the dinosaurs died out, Gittleman said. The cause of the later boom is also a mystery, he said.

The study's family tree includes 4,510 species, more than 99 percent of mammal species covered by an authoritative listing published in 1993. (Nearly 300 species have since been added to the listing, but the researchers said that doesn't affect their study's conclusions.) To construct it, the researchers combined previously published work that relied on analysis of DNA, fossils, anatomy and other information.

S. Blair Hedges, an evolutionary biologist at Pennsylvania State University, said the new work "pushes the envelope in the methods and data, and that's really important."

He said the demise of the dinosaurs may have affected mammal evolution by influencing characteristics like body size rather than boosting the number of new species created. Such changes wouldn't be picked up by the new study, he noted.

___

On the Net:

Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature


Oh ya?  Then were did all the birds and crocodiles come from?!  As we ALL KNOW birds and reptiles came from the dinosaurs.  Just like we knew that the killing of the dinosaurs sprung new....species.....oh wait....

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #165 - Mar 30th, 2007 at 6:25am
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transformers, birds in disguise!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #166 - Mar 30th, 2007 at 11:57am
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No wonder we couldn't kill them on Tuesday.  Rats with wings!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #167 - Apr 3rd, 2007 at 1:43pm
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I love LiveScience's articles so much...they just make me laugh.

Quote:
Jellyfish Have Human-Like Eyes

Andrea Thompson
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com Sun Apr 1, 3:01 PM ET

A set of special eyes, similar to our own, keeps venomous box jellyfish from bumping into obstacles as they swim across the ocean floor, a new study finds.
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Unlike normal jellyfish, which drift in the ocean current, box jellyfish are active swimmers that can rapidly make 180-degree turns and deftly dart between objects. Scientists suspect that box jellyfish are such agile because one set of their 24 eyes detects objects that get in their way.

“Behavior-wise, they’re very different from normal jellyfish,” said study leader Anders Garm of Lund University in Sweden.

The eyes of box jellyfish are located on cup-like structures that hang from their cube-shaped bodies.

Whereas we have one set of multi-purpose eyes that sense color, size, shape and light intensity, box jellyfish have four different types of special-purpose eyes. The most primitive set detects only light levels, but one set of eyes is more sophisticated and can detect the color and size of objects.

One of these eyes is located on the top of the cup-like structure, the other on the bottom, which provides the jellyfish with “an extreme fish-eye view, so it’s watching almost the entire underwater world,” said Garm, who will present his research at the Society of Experimental Biology’s annual meeting, in Scotland.

To test if these eyes helped the jellyfish avoid obstacles, Garm put the jellyfish in a flow chamber and inserted different objects to see if the jellyfish could avoid them. While the jellyfish could avoid objects of different colors and shapes, transparent objects proved more difficult.

“They can’t respond to the see-through ones,” Garm said.

Because jellyfish belong to one of the first groups of animals to evolve eyes (the phylum Cnidaria), Garm said, understanding how their eyes operate will show scientists what eyes were like early in evolutionary time.


Yes because we seen the intermediate species who tried over gradual time to develop the human eye.  There's no way possible this species is specifically designed because there is no designer and we know there's no designer because this specie isn't designed!  The circular reasoning isn't only useful on Christian theology!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #168 - Apr 4th, 2007 at 3:20pm
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The US government's plan to boost energy savings by moving Daylight Saving Time forward by three weeks was apparently a waste of time and effort, as the technological foibles Americans experienced failed to give way to any measurable energy savings.

Related StoriesMIT develops model for wireless power
The IT energy crisis
While the change caused no major infrastructure problems in the country, plenty of electronics and computer systems that were designed with the original DST switchover date (first Sunday in April) failed to update. The inconvenience was minor, and the potential savings were great. Or so we were told by the politicians behind the move.

As it turns out, the US Department of Energy (and almost everyone else except members of Congress) was correct when they predicted that there would be little energy savings. This echoed concerns voiced after a similar experiment was attempted in Australia. Critics pointed out a basic fact: the gains in the morning will be offset by the losses at night, and vice-versa, at both ends of the switch. That appears to be exactly what happened.

Reuters spoke with Jason Cuevas, spokesman for Southern Co. power, who said it plainly: "We haven't seen any measurable impact." New Jersey's Public Service Enterprise Group said the same thing: "no impact" on their business.

So while the US government pats itself on the back for at least looking busy, know that the main goal—energy conservation—has not been met. We can still argue over other supposed benefits, like the supposed reduction in crime (which returns in November?) and the fact that many people seem to simply like the change. As far as the purpose of the move is concerned, that appears to be a total flop.

Congress is tasked with reviewing the change and its effectiveness. With little to recommend it, the future of this latest DST change may ultimately hinge on Americans' preference for when we all get out of bed in the morning. Isn't arbitrary, mostly meaningless change great?

Oh, and if you're wondering why some of your colleagues showed up late for work yesterday, it's because many devices-even patched devices-shifted an hour ahead Sunday, when the change would have normally taken place.


Wow, didn't see that one coming.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #169 - Apr 4th, 2007 at 4:36pm
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DST is the most pointless thing out there.  When Carter was President he pushed back DST to save money on oil.  If he did it once and it saves money...why not do it all the time!?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #170 - Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:49pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html

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I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.


Was with him till this:

Quote:
Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.

But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.



He has belief in God and Jesus as his savior. He should now recognize that God's word is true, in every regard, even Genesis. Not really complaining here, just wasn't expecting this kind of sum up.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #171 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 12:23am
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So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.


This statement means that he would much rather take science's theory than God's Word.  I'm not going to question ANYONE'S belief...I would just point out to him...where does his faith lie?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #172 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 8:04am
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Has anyone watched the specials on the discovery channel called "Planet Earth"? I've seen all but one out of the five shown so far and I have to say, they have a lot of amazing footage.  The narrator explained that these shows have been 5 years in the making and they have some neverbefore seen "on film" animals.  I'm guessing that these episodes will be available in HD-DVD shortly which should look awesome.

Its funny, they touched on the global warming debate and had a 30 minute piece on the polar bear and why they are dying off.

Stick
(highly recommended to see it)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #173 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 8:58am
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Ya that show is amazing.  I really wish they would stick to the facts, what they see, rather than get into a whole debate deal on that.  That show just shows you the beauty of God's creation...and the beauty of HD!  I just hope they it doesn't become what National Geographic has become...a center for theory rather than a reporting of the wonder of creation.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #174 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 9:19am
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Yea Planet Earth rocks my socks off.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #175 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 10:46am
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Is it worth the download?

-b0b
(...has been looking for new material to download.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #176 - Apr 5th, 2007 at 10:48am
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Only if it's encoded for HD and not some crappy conversion.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #177 - Apr 12th, 2007 at 3:29pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070412/sc_livescience/trexrelatedtochicken...

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"I mean can you imagine pulling a bone out the ground after 68 million years and then getting intact protein sequences?" said John Asara of Beth
Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, lead author of one of the studies. "That's just mind boggling how much preservation there is in these bones."


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *Brain Explodes*

Open your eyes man!


Quote:
The previous record holder for the oldest protein tissue belonged to collagen found in a 100,000- to 300,000-year-old mammoth bone.

The new finding will be viewed skeptically, admitted one of the researchers involved in the two studies. "It's very, very, very controversial because most people have gone on record saying there's an absolute time limit to anything that's protein or DNA," said Mary Schweitzer, a molecular paleontologist at North Carolina State University

Matthew Carrano, a dinosaur curator at the
Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., who was not involved in either study, said the protein findings are robust. "Here are the pieces of the protein. If you're going to refute this you have to explain how these pieces got in there," Carrano said in a telephone interview.


Yea I don't think living tissue could last 68 million years! Go read a Bible!

~BRiney

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #178 - Apr 12th, 2007 at 4:17pm
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Here's a related article...

Quote:
Researchers decode T Rex genetic material
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID
AP SCIENCE WRITER

WASHINGTON -- Researchers have decoded genetic material from a 68 million-year-old Tyrannosaurus rex, an unprecedented step once thought impossible.

"The door just opens up to a whole avenue of research that involves anything extinct," said Matthew T. Carrano, curator of dinosaurs at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History.

And, the new finding adds weight to the idea that today's birds are descendants of dinosaurs.

While dinosaur bones have long been studied, "it's always been assumed that preservation does not extend to the cellular or molecular level," said Mary Higby Schweitzer of North Carolina State University.

It had been thought that some proteins could last a million years or more, but not to the age of the dinosaurs, she said.

So, when she was able to recover soft tissue from a T. rex bone found in Montana in 2003 she was surprised, Schweitzer said.



And now, researchers led by John M. Asara of Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston have been able to analyze proteins from that bone.
What Asara's team found was collagen, a type of fibrous connective tissue that is a major component of bone. And the closest match in creatures alive today was collagen from chicken bones.

Schweitzer and Asara report their findings in Friday's issue of the journal Science.

"Most people believe that birds evolved from dinosaurs, but that's all based on the architecture of the bones," said Asara. "This allows you to get the chance to say, 'Wait, they really are related because their sequences are related.' We didn't get enough sequences to definitively say that, but what sequences we got support that idea."

"The fact that we are getting proteins is very, very exciting," said John Horner of Montana State University and the Museum of the Rockies.

And, he added, it "changes the idea that birds and dinosaurs are related from a hypothesis to a theory."

To scientists that's a big deal.

In science, a hypothesis is an idea about something that seems probable, while a theory has been tested and is supported by evidence. Previously, the bird-dinosaur relationship was based on similarities in the shape of bones, now there is solid evidence of a relationship at the molecular level.

Horner, who found the bones studied by Schweitzer and Asara, said this is going to change the way paleontologists go about collecting specimens - they will now be looking for the best preserved items, often buried in sand or sandstone sediments.

This summer, he said, his museum is organizing nine different field crews involving more than 100 people to search for fossils in Montana and Mongolia.

Asara explained that he was working on a very refined form of mass spectrometry to help detect peptides - fragments of proteins - in tumors as part of cancer research.

In refining the technique, he had previously studied proteins from a mastodon, and when he heard of Schweitzer's finding soft tissues in a T. rex bone he decided to see if he could detect proteins there also.

He was able to identify seven different dinosaur proteins from the bone and compared them with proteins from living species. Three matched chickens, two matched several species including chickens, one matched a protein from a newt and the other from a frog.

Co-author Lewis Cantley of Harvard Medical School noted that this work is in its infancy, and when it is improved he expects to be able to isolate more proteins and seek more matches.

"Knowing how evolution occurred and how species evolved is a central question," Cantley said.

The Smithsonian's Carrano, who was not part of the research teams, said the report is an important confirmation of Schweitzer's techniques and shows that "the possibility of preservation is more than we had expected, and we can expect to see more in the future."

Matt Lamanna, a curator at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, called the finding "another piece in the puzzle that shows beyond the shadow of a doubt that dinosaurs are related to birds." Lamanna was not part of the research team.

So, does all this mean that a T. rex would have tasted like chicken? The researchers admit, they don't know.

Both research teams were supported by the National Science Foundation and the David and Lucille Packard Foundation. Schweitzer had additional support from NASA and Asara had added support from the Paul F. Glenn Foundation.


I don't understand how these guys can fail to connect the dots!  This is patently ridiculous.

Quote:
It had been thought that some proteins could last a million years or more, but not to the age of the dinosaurs, she said.


Newsflash!  The dinosaurs might not be 64 million years old!

-b0b
(...sighs.)
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2007 at 9:17am by b0b »  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #179 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 9:18am
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A Tyrannosaurus rex femur bone is shown in this undated photograph. Tiny bits of protein extracted from a 68-million-year-old dinosaur bone have given scientists the first genetic proof that the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex is a distant cousin to the modern chicken. The study results were published in the April 13, 2007 edition of the journal 'Science.


I thought you guys might want to see a picture of the bone in question.

-b0b
(...has a bone to pick.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #180 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 9:29am
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Funny thing is, every time they extract more proteins, they are getting less and less, which shows that out of its environment, the tissue is degrading even faster. 68 million years... ha! I bet its about 5 thousand or so
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #181 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 12:50pm
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Also how do they know that a bird didn't land there and deposit some DNA material?  Look at the proteins...they're similar to birds!  Maybe they are birds? Ooooo.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #182 - Apr 16th, 2007 at 4:02pm
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same argument that chimps are 95% similiar to man, ugh
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #183 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 4:26pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070418/sc_livescience/worldsfirsttreerecon...


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Earth's oldest known tree stood nearly 30 feet tall and looked like a modern palm, a new reconstruction shows.

Workers uncovered hundreds of upright stumps of the 385 million-year-old tree more than a century ago, after a flash flood in Gilboa, New York uncovered them, but little else was known about the tree’s appearance.

Then, in 2004, scientists unearthed a 400-pound fossilized top—or crown—of the same genus a few miles away. The following summer, the same team discovered fragments of a 28-foot trunk. Piecing together stump, trunk and crown now reveals what the full tree looked like for the first time.

“These were very big trees,” said study team member William Stein, a paleobotanist at the State University of New York at Binghamton.

“Our reconstruction shows them to be a lot longer and much more treelike than any of the reconstructions before,” Stein told LiveScience. “I don’t think any of us dared think of them being quite that big.”






Pre-Flood tree! Thats all I got out of the article! Wonder why they had to say "upright stumps" instead of just stumps. Odd.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #184 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 4:29pm
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Amazing what you can do in photoshop and with the imagination.  This is what we think a tree looks like...this is what our artists tell us early man looked like.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #185 - Apr 20th, 2007 at 6:59am
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early man? ... i thought that was just wes's mom after she shaved
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #186 - Apr 20th, 2007 at 9:28am
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Something like your avatar, I'd imagine
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #187 - Apr 20th, 2007 at 10:40am
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Zing!

-b0b
(...chuckles.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #188 - Apr 20th, 2007 at 10:43am
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zing...the sound of wes's new jewelry getting caught in his "significant others" prince albert
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #189 - Apr 20th, 2007 at 7:44pm
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Quote:
Gene study shows chimps more diverse than humans

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor Fri Apr 20, 4:23 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - They may all be black and hairy and they may all eat and act in much the same way, but chimpanzees from different parts of Africa are genetically more diverse than all of humanity, researchers reported on Friday.

Experts have long marveled that older ideas of race are not reflected in human DNA. Genetic diversity is more pronounced within population groups than between them, with only a few gene differences accounting for the wide variations seen in eye, skin and hair color across humanity.

So animals all about the same size and color and showing few behavioral differences must be even more genetically identical, right?

Wrong, says Molly Przeworski, assistant professor of human genetics at the University of Chicago.

Her team looked at the DNA of the three designated populations of chimpanzees in Africa -- the eastern, western and central populations, designated by some researchers as sub-species of the chimpanzee.

They found that a western chimpanzee has more differences, genetically, from an eastern chimp than any one human being has from another.

"It is the first genetic confirmation that they are distinct populations," Przeworski said in a telephone interview. "I stay away from the word 'subspecies'."

The study, done with experts at the Broad Institute at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and at Arizona State University, is interesting in its own right, but also sheds light on human origins, Przeworski said.

"This gives us a working model of how human evolution might have proceeded," she said.

CLUE TO PRE-HUMAN PAST

Millions of years ago in Africa, ancient remains indicate that several species of pre-humans emerged and lived perhaps side-by-side. Chimpanzees, the closest genetic living relative to human beings, may be undergoing changes similar to those that drove human evolution.

Przeworski's team also looked at bonobos, a separate species of chimpanzee. The chimpanzee genome differs from the bonobo genome by about 0.3 percent, which is one-fourth the distance between humans and chimps, they found.

And yet bonobos are very different from the common chimpanzee. They are smaller, much gentler and known for their frequent sexual interactions.

The differences among the three common chimpanzee species are smaller but still significant. And they reflect geographic barriers, said Celine Becquet, a graduate student who did the analysis for Przeworski.

"We think most of this separation is genuine, a long-term consequence of geographic isolation," Becquet said.

One major barrier between the populations is the Congo River. "Chimps don't swim," Becquet said. "For them, water provides a very effective border."

Writing in the Public Library of Sciences journal PLoS Genetics, the researchers say they estimate that bonobos, which live south of the Congo River, split off from the ancestors of modern chimpanzees about 800,000 years ago.

Western chimps appear to have separated from central and eastern chimpanzees about 500,000 years ago and central and eastern chimps would have divided from one another about 250,000 years ago.

The interest is more than academic, Przeworski said, noting that all chimpanzees are a threatened species.

"It means we have to protect three separate habitats, all threatened, instead of just one," she said.


Hmm isn't this interesting.  I believe this doctor wants us to own black again since they are a "subspecies".  I like how she says she wants to stay away from that word.  Ya because using that word means that there are people more "evolved" than others and therefore are "better".

Also this finding shoots more holes into man and ape being very closely the same in DNA.

As well as showing that man would have had his chances of finding a mate cut in 1/3 according to her research.  That means man could not have interbred with the other two SUBSPECIES and would have had to wait who knows how long for another chimp to evolve to him or her.

Ya...evolution is the right answer...good job there scientists...way to keep struggling with a concept that makes no sense and yet attack anyone who questions it as a lunatic.  You're right...two organism evolved at the same time and liked each other so much they had kids and then there ancestors evolved two more organisms at the same time to mate their way up to us.  Yep...nothing crazy about that!

Anyone else?  Ironman?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #190 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 12:17pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070423/sc_livescience/ancientrainforestrev...

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Scientists exploring a mine have uncovered a natural Sistine chapel showing not religious paintings, but incredibly well preserved images of sprawling tree trunks and fallen leaves that once breathed life into an ancient rainforest.

Replete with a diverse mix of extinct plants, the 300-million-year-old fossilized forest is revealing clues about the ecology of Earth’s first rainforests . The discovery and details of the forest are published in the May issue of the journal Geology.

“We’re looking at one instance in time over a large area. It’s literally a snapshot in time of a multiple square mile area,” said study team member Scott Elrick of the Illinois State Geological Survey (ISGS).

Forest find

Over millions of years as sediments and plant material pile up, layer upon layer, the resulting bands become time indicators with the newest, youngest layer on the top and the oldest layer at the bottom. Typically geologists peel away a vertical slice of rocky material to look at material, including fossils, over a period of time.


Quote:
A reconstruction of the ancient forest showed that like today’s rainforests, it had a layered structure with a mix of plants now extinct: Abundant club mosses stood more than 130-feet high, towering over a sub-canopy of tree ferns and an assortment of shrubs and tree-sized horsetails that looked like giant asparagus.

Flash freeze

The scientists think a major earthquake about 300 million years ago caused the region to drop below sea level where it was buried in mud. They estimate that within a period of months the forest was buried, preserving it “forever.”

“Some of these tree stumps have been covered geologically speaking in a flash,” Elrick said.


Sigh, there is so much proof for a global flood its not even funny. Take out their silly millions of years, and you have just another spot of ancient plants preserved by some mud flow from the flood. Also, I will remind you that coal and oil come from the remains of plants (peat, etc) that are subjected to pressure. Now I ask you... What would create intense pressure, and also create a muddy environment that would preserve some plants as fossils.... How about water covering the earth at a depth of a mile or 2!?  I would say that much water might weigh enough to do the trick. Don't forget 75% of the earth's surface is sedimentary rock, which means deposited by WATER!

Scientists would be wise to revisit the scientific method and realize that evolution and a 5 billion year old earth is fantasy and requires an extremely religious person to believe it. Let's make evolution a religion too, shall we? While we are at it lets remove it from our science books and just teach what is provable. I also think creation should be kept out too, because that is a belief as well. Just teach science for crying out loud!

~BRiney

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #191 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 9:10pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #192 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 11:15pm
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Ok I am going to get a running start off of mount everest, that will get me there! Hopefully gravity will turn off when I jump!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #193 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 11:29pm
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Hey it might...since there are no absolutes...gravity is just trying to oppress you with its "intolerance".

Getting to the real issue this is like the difference between porn and sex.  You can have fun looking at it...but it's no where close to actually experiencing the real thing (from what I hear of course).  We are too busy trying to bring "democracy" to the planet that we don't care about anything else.  We find no value in our space exploration because we're too busy spending money on more important things...like bridges to no where, the mating habits of halibut, what makes the homeless smell, and how often the elderly masturbate (that last one is actually real).  Remember in the days (well we can't but we can look back through other means) in the days of communism vs freedom and JFK "To the moon!" speech?  We did in 10 years what it's taken almost 50 years to go to another planet...and that clock is still ticking.  Want to solve global warming (if you believe it's man made)...why no colonize another planet or make all our factories go to Venus or Mars?  Why not want to develop new technology that will trickle down to the common people.  NASA has over 100,000 patents on technology that came just from developing Apollo...and the amount of technology we have in our current washing machines is the equivalent to what Apollo spaceships ran on and the sophification it had.

Why can't we make Congress watch Star Trek...the answer to all our problems lie in the stars.  Want world wide peace and tranquility?  Want to end racism and intolerance?  Want to develop some awesome technology that will actually make a difference and not using the same time and money on what makes stuff that comes out of some cat's butt make perfume smell like (yes also true)?  Then we should get serious on our space program and exploration.  For the past 50 years we have learned much, yes.  But we have applied it to nothing.  Computers keep getting better yes, but where did those advances first start?  With NASA and the conquest of space.  Now we just pay some scientists bookoo bucks to look out and go "ooo the pretty colors".  If God were to judge mankind on what it has done to advance itself, He would have to dig out the floor of Hell to make a very special place for us.

AND WHERE IS MY SELF DRIVING FLYING CAR!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #194 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 8:26am
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sadly we don't have the level of technology available to make the trek (HA!) to the planet, let alone come back.  Sure we came a little ways in terms of computers/electronics but we still only use chemical propellants.  If we want to make the trip inside the lifespan of the pilots we need to make some huge breakthroughs.  And this is totally ignoring dust and radiation that will be encountered along the way.


...i'm a huge buzzkill i know, but hey bush will be out of office soon and we can start moving forward again
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #195 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 8:41am
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Yeah, 120 trillion miles is a pretty good jog.  We'd be hard pressed to even design an unmanned vehicle that could travel that distance in a reasonable period of time, let alone a manned vehicle with sufficient fuel and reliability to make the trip in that person's lifetime.

-b0b
(...still thinks the finding is cool.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #196 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 11:51am
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That's my point exactly though.  We have set no goals to advance us further.  In the 60's it was to beat the Russians to point A, then B, and then C...all the way to the moon.  Now it's just...hey will this old piece of technology that the administrator head of NASA says shouldn't have even been invented going to blow up?  What are the effects of weightlessness on ants?  All the advances are mostly for the "When we finally get our butts in gear to explore again this is what we're going to have to deal with."

There's an old Roman saying "If a man knows not what port he sails to, no wind is favorable".  That is what our space program has become.  Sure we can spend billions on pork spending, we can "loose" a few billion dollars in cash we send to Iraq, we can illegally take taxes away from people to pay off an illegal national debt...but we can't give NASA the funding to revamp our entire space system.  Now that we know more about different types of fuels...let's actually fund them to work in our spaceships...then it will come down to us in our cars.  That is, of course, when we don't play politics and oil keeps the slope slippery for certain people...that and blood.

Each 10 years let's try another...I want this goal set and let's get some science students through college with this money so they can come work for us.  There's just so many plans if we wanted to take science and progress seriously.  We've basically reverted back to the 1950's where we're just sending up rockets into space and going...oooo and "someday there will be casinos on the moon!"

AND FLYING CARS THAT DRIVE THEMSELVES!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #197 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:20pm
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No, NASA has a goal... the moon by 2020, then Mars! Problem is... They don't have funding! They have the drive and determinations, its just that they have to cancel many projects so they can actually fulfill that goal.

Sadness.

I would like to go to a moon casino!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #198 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:24pm
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Again...NASA would love to do a lot of things...the head of NASA right now is that man who is doing all he can and he would be the perfect head to get things in gear.  However, there is no govt or country backing him and NASA.  There is no demand from us to "go to Mars within 10 years" no government saying "let's see what NASA can develop if we try to terraform part of the moon"

Saying we're going to the moon in 2020 is like saying in the 1950s...by the year 2000 we'll be living on the moon.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #199 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:27pm
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It is still a goal! i mean its not that far off. Kennedy put forth the moon goal some 8 years before we landed there.  So 2020 being 13 years off, is still a legit goal. And its not just to land on the moon its to get some bases going!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #200 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:34pm
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Still...when JFK said it we had more on the line than just "because it's there" mantra.  We wanted to beat the Russians.  Also NASA had huge support from the politicians and the people.  Now the only time we see a shuttle launch is if something goes wrong or a launch just after something goes wrong.  Americans have become the "been there done that" people no one could have imagined in the 60's.  Although it's a circular problem.  NASA is having trouble because the people aren't that interested and the people aren't that interested because NASA doesn't have more support.

NASA works on morale the same as the military men and women do.  Without support...why fight.  Oh sure...put up some time tables...but if we don't make them...meh...it's not like we're going to get fired or anything.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #201 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:42pm
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well hey everyone was saying: Oh man, another moon landing? Sheesh... boring! It wasn't until apollo 13 that it became interesting again. Yea disaster! You are just getting into some human nature, not Americanism. If it has been done before, it is not exciting anymore. That fits into the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" saying. We always want something, but when we get it, we no longer care for it. Not just Americans, but everyone.

NASA isn't on a morale principle. They don't just sit around! Mars rover missions, SOHO around the sun, deep space missions, NASA has been doing a lot! It just isn't the grand epic tale that you are looking for Mr. Grass is greener. You want something new too, don't lie!

I forget which friend it was, Danny or Mark or someone... But his uncle worked for skunkworks and various other secret black projects. He still can't talk about it, but he said: If you can imagine it, we have done it.

So who knows.

And yea I rambled, but thats what you deserve, you NASA hater.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #202 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:54pm
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Well the moon landings got boring because they were doing the same things again and again...not to mention it was more of the media than the people who got bored with the moon landings.  I think why they stopped going to the moon was because they didn't find anything cool (although if you believe some conspiracy theories we did find some alien ships there).

Yes NASA does a lot of stuff with what little they have to work with...and exploration is great...but why not try sending people out there to do the testing.  Only 50 of the 243 active astronauts get to go into space in their career.  You think they worked that hard to sit around and do nothing?  Science for the sake of science is great but if we just keep sending the same technology to different places we're only going to get one good aspect out of it...the science...and not the advancement of technology and understanding.  So yes, I want something new...even the people at NASA do.  When the head director of your space program says that their main mode of transportation is not only obsolete but shouldn't have been built in the first place...you better believe him and his staff want change.

As for skunkworks look at all the good it has done us (besides reverse engineering alien technology).  We got the B2 and the SR71 and the F117A out of it...and we discontinue the production (under Clinton).  I don't see UFOs fighting in Iraq and I don't see ones with NASA stickers flying to Mars and back.  Plus I can imagine a purple money that dispenses Mountain Dew in a can and nerds in box...they didn't produce THAT did they?  Noooooo.

NASA hater?  I wish we'd defund the entire war and but those 80 billion dollars into NASA.  At least it would be worth something.  Umm...the moon has WMDs!  We need to conquer it and build a permanent base there!  Al Qaeda is there too arming the resistance!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #203 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 1:02pm
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Ya ya ya.

anyway the war will prolly end up costing a trillion. So that would be nice for NASA. Plus not to mention there would be a few hundred thousand people still alive. But that is another thread.

So let us both agree NASA needs money. Cause I don't remember what we are arguing about.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #204 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 1:07pm
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Me - NASA has no real goals and needs support and money

You - NASA has 2 goals and needs support and money.

No arguing...just a few disagreements.

Good discussion!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #205 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:04pm
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Here's a novel idea:  Why don't we stop playing "Space Crusader" on the public dime and let private interests take over space exploration?

I don't understand why you're both so adamantly opposed to big government in every arena except this one.  There was a solid reason for the government getting involved in the space race in the 60's, but that reason died with the cold war.

-b0b
(...is going to catch some serious flack for this one.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #206 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:23pm
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I would love to see private companies do more with space...yet no one has the money or is willing to fork it over.  Investments and stock markets demand from companies that they make a profit in as little time as possible.  You would have to wait a bit longer than most people want to to develop new technologies and patent it for profit.  With the government at the helm they can raise the revenue needed and don't have to worry about share holders.  Shoot I'd fork over my 25 cents that goes to the UN to NASA any day of the week.

I'm always for government to get out of the lives of people...yet I can't see any company, corporation, entity, or persons willing to shell out millions of dollars and not expect an immediate return on their investments.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #207 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:37pm
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But there are already 3 spaceports being build X... for commercial spaceflights for tourism. And of course Virgin Galactic is experimenting with a space hotel. Which would rock. So yes, commercial competition will supply that drive that you are looking for. Before it was the race with the Soviets. now it is a race between corporations!

So I am all for it. But Nasa should still have a lead role in developing technology and exploration, while commercial spaceflight is touristy and profitable. Mine the moon! Haha. Environmentalists would flip out.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #208 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:40pm
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That's exactly my point.  At the moment, there's no real incentive to travel to another planet on the other side of the solar system.  Private industry won't touch it because there's nothing in it for them except huge R&D costs.

If the planet was dying (thanks, Mr. Gore) and we had to escape to survive, I'd be all for government intervention in Space Race II, but at this point I see absolutely no reason why the .Gov should spend money on this.

Quote:
With the government at the helm they can raise the revenue needed...


If by "raise the money" you mean "print the fiat money from thin air" or "borrow money from China," I fully agree with you.

-b0b
(...shrugs.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #209 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:42pm
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MediaMaster wrote on Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:37pm:
And of course Virgin Galactic is experimenting with a space hotel.


Virgin Galactic would be a perfect name for Wes' personal hotel.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #210 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:45pm
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Yes but let us take heed from Alien, Aliens, Aliens3, Alien Resurrection, and Alien Vs. Predator...corporations in space can be bad if not checked and balanced.

And I don't even consider spaceflights for tourism as a legitimate space purpose.  Yes it would be fun and rake in millions of dollars but I'm talking about legitamite science...not some Jurassic Park-esk "ooo look at the Earth" and of course they'll build it cheap and safety insufficient and then they'll name it the "Titanic" and then a made for TV movie will get made about the disaster...or James Cameron will try and prove Jesus' bones were on the space station (wow I really got off track!).

Space hotel and space tourism is making my point though...there would be no science or exploration benefit only about taking money from people who want to go into space...and Russia's doing that already.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #211 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:49pm
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Yeah, X, we call that capitalism.  If there is money to be made from traveling into space (be it from tourism, mining, cheesy documentaries, etc.), private industry will make the necessary investment to capitalize on the opportunity.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #212 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:53pm
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yes but they are developing new technologies to do so, and streamlining old ones! I mean it is only going to cost 250k per person to go into low earth orbit. Awesome! Keep pushing and streamlining to develop easier to build space stations for these hotels, and you are getting new technology, and cheaper technology! That is what we need! Even if it is to just stare at the earth from space, you are making outer space more accessible!

What if these corporations want to build a space elevator? Which is a distinct possibility. Estimates place the project around 10 billion dollars. So anyway, this allows for cheap travel to space, and hauling of other materials, which allows for larger space stations and the construction of large spacecraft.

You think space tourism would stop at low earth orbit? No!  people will want to see the moon, then mars, the asteroid belt, etc! So larger ships and engine technology will be invented. The demand will be there, which will create this drive and motivation for space travel.

Cause when you break it down to it's basic level, isn't space exploration just a fancy word for tourism!? You think scientists want to go to mars to look at samples and rocks? No! They could build robots for that... They want to explore... to tour!

So yes, tourism in space is creating a huge demand for space travel and will start a huge boom in developing space technologies.

Sucker.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #213 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 3:00pm
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I'm not saying space tourism is a bad thing I'm just saying that it will only be one end of the spectrum I think we would want.  New technology coming from that would be good, es. the space elevator (although you'd have to watch out for another false flag operation...those "muslim" terrorists again and a space elevator to Mars would be loooong :-D ).  However we still need entities for the science aspect of life as well.  Flying some people with 250K to spend generates revenue, which I'm not against, but the science is what will bring a greater impact to the world.

Also, are we going to allow the govt to have a hands off policy on overseeing safety and quality control?  If Enron and WorldCom and all the other corps have taught us is that we should trust corporations like we trust our government...not that much.

So yes, let me visit the moon for $20 and let us colonize some planets...but we need to know the science behind our universe and that ALONG with the develop to obtain those findings will be a greater benefit to us than anything else.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #214 - Apr 26th, 2007 at 1:16am
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Ok now for another "evolution" type story.  I confirmed my findings with Eric so I've checked with my findings on this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/04/25/hubble.nebula.reut/index.html

Quote:
Dazzling image captures violent birth of stars
POSTED: 11:17 a.m. EDT, April 25, 2007

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A dazzlingly detailed image released by NASA scientists on Tuesday shows the chaotic conditions in which stars are born and die -- in this case in a huge nebula in another neighborhood of our Milky Way galaxy.


I want you to read this article and remember 1984's double think throughout it.  Right off the bat these moronic scientists believe that out of chaos comes order.  Hmm let's detonate a bomb in a scrap heap and let's see if it gives us a car.  If this really happened and chaos brought about order we should no longer care about laws and order.  In fact we are hurting ourselves by developing laws and order.

Quote:
The image, made from a series of 48 shots taken by the orbiting Hubble Space Telescope in spring and summer of 2005, depicts star birth in a new level of detail.


Ok now here they promised me a birth of a star ok?  A BIRTH of a star.

Quote:
It provides a view spanning a distance of 50 light years across of the Carina Nebula. A nebula is an immense cloud of hot interstellar gas and dust.

This messy and chaotic region includes at least a dozen brilliant stars estimated to be perhaps 50 to 100 times the mass of the sun, astronomers said.

One of them, called Eta Carinae, is in the final stages of its short life span, with two billowing lobes of gas and dust -- a harbinger of its future explosion as a large supernova.


THE DEATH OF A STAR?!  I thought we were showing stars being born!!!  If you were a scientist who thought he was seeing stars being born...why would you point to the star about to die?  It makes no logical sense.  Wouldn't you say like..."Look at this point of light...we named it Star X...see how it's adding mass to become bigger and brighter and hotter!?"  Nooo...he points to the star dying!

Quote:
"In short, it gives us a glimpse of the violent conditions that most stars are born in, where they are exposed to the relentless irradiation from their older siblings," astronomer Nathan Smith of the University of California at Berkeley, the lead investigator in this work, said by e-mail.


Huh *shakes head with cartoon sounds coming out of it*.  When did he give us an example of a star being born?  So can we create a star in the lab and just radiate the heck out of it?  Oh no?  Why's that?  Well because that would destroy anything like that...not create something.  These "scientists" are forgetting the two basic laws of science.  Matter and energy cannot be created and the law of entropy.  THAT! is what we are seeing here!  We are seeing these stars wind down in the cloud!  Not build up! 

Quote:
"There are several clues suggesting that our sun and planets were indeed born in a violent region something like this, along with some very hot and massive stars," Smith added. Our solar system was formed about 4.6 billion years ago.


*Cough* Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. *cough*

Quote:
The nebula is about 7,500 light years away from Earth in the constellation Carina in a neighboring spiral arm of our Milky Way galaxy. The Hubble image depicts a massive region, but it is only a small portion of the whole nebula, which spans 150 to 200 light years across, Smith said.

People can see the nebula with the naked eye from Earth's southern hemisphere, Smith said.

"What you are seeing in the image is hot ionized gas -- in this case, the colors represent oxygen, hydrogen and sulfur at different temperatures," Smith added.


Hmm if it's gas that means it's burning and if it's burning that DOESN'T mean it's being born...it DOES mean that it is dying!  Just like our sun.  You never see fire evolve up into something new and better or create something new or better.

Quote:
The image was released to coincide with the 17th anniversary of launching Hubble into orbit to provide scientists with clear and deep views of the universe without the Earth's atmosphere getting in the way. It is one of the largest panoramic images ever taken by Hubble.

The future of Hubble is in doubt because the space shuttle program is winding down in the coming years and the telescope needs manned maintenance missions to continue operations.

The image was released by NASA's Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore.


So today we learn that black is white and dry is wet and dying means life.  Now your next assignment is to go to the 2 minutes of hate and do the best you can at silencing Emmanuel Goldstein!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #215 - Apr 26th, 2007 at 8:05pm
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http://www.standard-freeholder.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=502332...

Quote:
The current debate about global warming is "completely irrational," and people need to start taking a different approach, say two Ottawa scientists.

Carleton University science professor Tim Patterson said global warming will not bring about the downfall of life on the planet.

Patterson said much of the up-to-date research indicates that "changes in the brightness of the sun" are almost certainly the primary cause of the warming trend since the end of the "Little Ice Age" in the late 19th century. Human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2), the gas of concern in most plans to curb climate change, appear to have little effect on global climate, he said.

"I think the proof in the pudding, based on what (media and governments) are saying, (is) we're about three quarters of the way (to disaster) with the doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere," said Patterson. "The world should be heating up like crazy by now, and it's not. The temperatures match very closely with the solar cycles."

Patterson explained CO2 is not a pollutant, but an essential plant food.


Billions of taxpayers' dollars are spent to control the emissions of this benign gas, in the mistaken belief that they can stop climate change, he said.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #216 - Apr 27th, 2007 at 1:49am
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But...but...Al Gore said I was ruining the environment with my one computer and he was doing Gaia's work with his mansion...and...and the UN scientists said global warming was true too....and Pluto isn't a planet....

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #217 - Apr 27th, 2007 at 7:14am
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Wes's Mom is still a planet, but you don't hear me complaining.  Watch out for her "asteroid belt."

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #218 - Apr 27th, 2007 at 7:35am
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if global warming is real...then why was it still so fucking cold in houghton?!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #219 - Apr 27th, 2007 at 11:25am
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Because the devil has to live somewhere before he goes to the hot hot place!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #220 - Apr 27th, 2007 at 11:43am
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Jamaica?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #221 - May 8th, 2007 at 8:43am
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Quote:
WASHINGTON - Scientists say they have detected the brightest stellar explosion ever recorded, a new breed of supernova that may well be repeated sooner than they previously thought.

The violent explosion was observed by ground-based telescopes as well as NASA's orbiting Chandra X-Ray Observatory in a galaxy far from our own Milky Way. But the observations hint that an erupting star in our own galaxy, called Eta Carinae, could be close to the same kind of blast, astronomers say in a paper to be published in The Astrophysical Journal.

For years, scientists have been looking for a blast this big, but never found one until last September. After months of analysis, the research team discussed their findings at a news conference Monday here at NASA Headquarters.

"We discovered a supernova that stands out as far and away the most powerful, the brightest supernova that has ever been observed," the head of the research team, Nathan Smith of the University of California at Berkeley, told reporters.

"Now that alone is not reason to make it so exciting," he continued. "The reason we're excited about it is that the supernova is so powerful we think it may require a new type of explosion mechanism, that has been predicted theoretically but has never been actually observed before."

The brightness of the supernova, which has been designated SN 2006gy, wasn't that obvious to earthly observers because the star that blew up was 240 million light-years from Earth, in a galaxy called NGC 1260.

But when astronomers took that vast distance into account, they figured that the supernova was 100 times more energetic than usual. Such a phenomenon would require the violent destruction of a star 150 times more massive than our sun — which is near the theoretical limit for a single star's size.

A new twist for theorists
Theorists had thought that stars that big were more likely to collapse into black holes, sucking all their mass into gravitational sinkholes. Another possibility was that the stars might blow away much of their mass, leaving behind a superdense neutron star.

However, the observations of SN 2006gy hint that the biggest stars can go off like giant thermonuclear bombs at the end of their lives. As the star blows up, some of the energy is converted into pairs of matter and antimatter particles, leading to a runaway thermonuclear reaction rather than a black hole.

"This is Einstein's famous equation E=mc2 put into practice," said Mario Livio, a senior astrophysicist at the Space Telescope Science Institute. Livio was not part of the supernova research team but said the team's conclusions were plausible.

This process would be completely different from the typical supernova blast, which involves material ejected from the star's core slamming into surrounding hydrogen gas and creating a violent shock wave.

To make sure that the shock-wave mechanism wasn't at work in SN 2006gy, the astronomers compared the observations from ground-based telescopes with Chandra's X-ray readings. They found that the X-ray readings would have had to have been 1,000 times stronger to fit the usual pattern. That's what led the astronomers to conclude that the blast was powered by the runaway thermonuclear process.

A supernova nearby?
Astronomers think many of the universe's first generation of stars were this massive. Thus, SN 2006gy could shed light on how the first stars lived and died.

But the findings also raise the possibility that Eta Carinae, the most massive and energetic star observed in our own galaxy, could blow up in the same way. Smith and his colleagues noted that Eta Carinae is roughly the same size as the star behind SN 2006gy, and at roughly the same stage of its life. Eta Carinae, like the star that exploded in the distant galaxy, appears to be shedding huge clouds of hydrogen gas in preparation for a blowup, the astronomers said.

For all its similarities, Eta Carinae is markedly different from SN 2006gy in that it's much closer. Eta Carinae is only 7,500 light-years from Earth, or about 45 quadrillion miles away — which may sound like a long way in earthly terms, but isn't all that distant for a cosmic supernova.

If Eta Carinae were to blow up like SN 2006gy, we'd definitely notice it, said David Pooley, the Berkeley astronomer who was in charge of Chandra's observations.

"It would be so bright that you could see it during the day, and you could even read a book by its light at night," Pooley told reporters.

Scientists had thought that Eta Carinae would have to puff away all its shells of hydrogen before blowing up, a process that could take 100,000 years or more. But Livio noted that the newly proposed mechanism would allow for an explosion at any time.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #222 - May 9th, 2007 at 2:42pm
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http://www.wecnmagazine.com/2007issues/may/may07.html

The Faithful Heretic
A Wisconsin Icon Pursues Tough Questions

Some people are lucky enough to enjoy their work, some are lucky enough to love it, and then there’s Reid Bryson. At age 86, he’s still hard at it every day, delving into the science some say he invented.

Reid A. Bryson holds the 30th PhD in Meteorology granted in the history of American education. Emeritus Professor and founding chairman of the University of Wisconsin Department of Meteorology—now the Department of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences—in the 1970s he became the first director of what’s now the UW’s Gaylord Nelson Institute of Environmental Studies. He’s a member of the United Nations Global 500 Roll of Honor—created, the U.N. says, to recognize “outstanding achievements in the protection and improvement of the environment.” He has authored five books and more than 230 other publications and was identified by the British Institute of Geographers as the most frequently cited climatologist in the world.

Long ago in the Army Air Corps, Bryson and a colleague prepared the aviation weather forecast that predicted discovery of the jet stream by a group of B-29s flying to and from Tokyo. Their warning to expect westerly winds at 168 knots earned Bryson and his friend a chewing out from a general—and the general’s apology the next day when he learned they were right. Bryson flew into a couple of typhoons in 1944, three years before the Weather Service officially did such things, and he prepared the forecast for the homeward flight of the Enola Gay. Back in Wisconsin, he built a program at the UW that’s trained some of the nation’s leading climatologists.

How Little We Know

Bryson is a believer in climate change, in that he’s as quick as anyone to acknowledge that Earth’s climate has done nothing but change throughout the planet’s existence. In fact, he took that knowledge a big step further, earlier than probably anyone else. Almost 40 years ago, Bryson stood before the American Association for the Advancement of Science and presented a paper saying human activity could alter climate.

“I was laughed off the platform for saying that,” he told Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News.

In the 1960s, Bryson’s idea was widely considered a radical proposition. But nowadays things have turned almost in the opposite direction: Hardly a day passes without some authority figure claiming that whatever the climate happens to be doing, human activity must be part of the explanation. And once again, Bryson is challenging the conventional wisdom.

“Climate’s always been changing and it’s been changing rapidly at various times, and so something was making it change in the past,” he told us in an interview this past winter. “Before there were enough people to make any difference at all, two million years ago, nobody was changing the climate, yet the climate was changing, okay?”

“All this argument is the temperature going up or not, it’s absurd,” Bryson continues. “Of course it’s going up. It has gone up since the early 1800s, before the Industrial Revolution, because we’re coming out of the Little Ice Age, not because we’re putting more carbon dioxide into the air.”

Little Ice Age? That’s what chased the Vikings out of Greenland after they’d farmed there for a few hundred years during the Mediaeval Warm Period, an earlier run of a few centuries when the planet was very likely warmer than it is now, without any help from industrial activity in making it that way. What’s called “proxy evidence”—assorted clues extrapolated from marine sediment cores, pollen specimens, and tree-ring data—helps reconstruct the climate in those times before instrumental temperature records existed.

We ask about that evidence, but Bryson says it’s second-tier stuff. “Don’t talk about proxies,” he says. “We have written evidence, eyeball evidence. When Eric the Red went to Greenland, how did he get there? It’s all written down.”

Bryson describes the navigational instructions provided for Norse mariners making their way from Europe to their settlements in Greenland. The place was named for a reason: The Norse farmed there from the 10th century to the 13th, a somewhat longer period than the United States has existed. But around 1200 the mariners’ instructions changed in a big way. Ice became a major navigational reference. Today, old Viking farmsteads are covered by glaciers.

Bryson mentions the retreat of Alpine glaciers, common grist for current headlines. “What do they find when the ice sheets retreat, in the Alps?”

We recall the two-year-old report saying a mature forest and agricultural water-management structures had been discovered emerging from the ice, seeing sunlight for the first time in thousands of years. Bryson interrupts excitedly.

“A silver mine! The guys had stacked up their tools because they were going to be back the next spring to mine more silver, only the snow never went,” he says. “There used to be less ice than now. It’s just getting back to normal.”

What Leads, What Follows?

What is normal? Maybe continuous change is the only thing that qualifies. There’s been warming over the past 150 years and even though it’s less than one degree, Celsius, something had to cause it. The usual suspect is the “greenhouse effect,” various atmospheric gases trapping solar energy, preventing it being reflected back into space.

We ask Bryson what could be making the key difference:

Q: Could you rank the things that have the most significant impact and where would you put carbon dioxide on the list?

A: Well let me give you one fact first. In the first 30 feet of the atmosphere, on the average, outward radiation from the Earth, which is what CO2 is supposed to affect, how much [of the reflected energy] is absorbed by water vapor? In the first 30 feet, 80 percent, okay?

Q: Eighty percent of the heat radiated back from the surface is absorbed in the first 30 feet by water vapor…

A: And how much is absorbed by carbon dioxide? Eight hundredths of one percent. One one-thousandth as important as water vapor. You can go outside and spit and have the same effect as doubling carbon dioxide.

This begs questions about the widely publicized mathematical models researchers run through supercomputers to generate climate scenarios 50 or 100 years in the future. Bryson says the data fed into the computers overemphasizes carbon dioxide and accounts poorly for the effects of clouds—water vapor. Asked to evaluate the models’ long-range predictive ability, he answers with another question: “Do you believe a five-day forecast?”

Bryson says he looks in the opposite direction, at past climate conditions, for clues to future climate behavior. Trying that approach in the weeks following our interview, Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News soon found six separate papers about Antarctic ice core studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals between 1999 and 2006. The ice core data allowed researchers to examine multiple climate changes reaching back over the past 650,000 years. All six studies found atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations tracking closely with temperatures, but with CO2 lagging behind changes in temperature, rather than leading them. The time lag between temperatures moving up—or down—and carbon dioxide following ranged from a few hundred to a few thousand years.

Renaissance Man, Marathon Man

When others were laughing at the concept, Reid Bryson was laying the ground floor for scientific investigation of human impacts on climate. We asked UW Professor Ed Hopkins, the assistant state climatologist, about the significance of Bryson’s work in advancing the science he’s now practiced for six decades.

“His contributions are manifold,” Hopkins said. “He wrote Climates of Hunger back in the 1970s looking at how climate changes over the last several thousand years have affected human activity and human cultures.”

This, he suggests, is traceable to Bryson’s high-school interest in archaeology, followed by college degrees in geology, then meteorology, and studies in oceanography, limnology, and other disciplines. “He’s looked at the interconnections of all these things and their impact on human societies,” Hopkins says. “He’s one of those people I would say is a Renaissance person.”

The Renaissance, of course, produced its share of heretics, and 21 years after he supposedly retired, one could ponder whether Bryson’s work today is a tale of continuing heresy, or of conventional wisdom being outpaced by an octogenarian.

Without addressing—or being asked—that question, UW Green Bay Emeritus Professor Joseph Moran agrees that Bryson qualifies as “the father of the science of modern climatology.”

“In his lifetime, in his career, he has shaped the future as well as the present state of climatology,” Moran says, adding, “We’re going to see his legacy with us for many generations to come.”

Holding bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Boston College, Moran became a doctoral candidate under Bryson in the late 1960s and early ’70s. “I came to Wisconsin because he was there,” Moran told us.

With Hopkins, Moran co-authored Wisconsin’s Weather and Climate, a book aimed at teachers, students, outdoor enthusiasts, and workers with a need to understand what the weather does and why. Bryson wrote a preface for the book but Hopkins told us the editors “couldn’t fathom” certain comments, thinking he was being too flippant with the remark that “Wisconsin is not for wimps when it comes to weather.”

Clearly what those editors couldn’t fathom was that Bryson simply enjoys mulling over the reasons weather and climate behave as they do and what might make them—and consequently us—behave differently. This was immediately obvious when we asked him why, at his age, he keeps showing up for work at a job he’s no longer paid to do.

“It’s fun!” he said. Ed Hopkins and Joe Moran would undoubtedly agree.

“I think that’s one of the reasons for his longevity,” Moran says. “He’s so interested and inquisitive. I regard him as a pot-stirrer. Sometimes people don’t react well when you challenge their long-held ideas, but that’s how real science takes place."


But... but... but... I thought it was a CONSENSUS!  You mean there are scientists (and respected ones at that) that disagree with the idea that we caused global warming?!

He's a Halliburton operative!  It's the only possible answer!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #223 - May 15th, 2007 at 2:08pm
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Human Ancestor Had a Pea Brain

Jeanna Bryner
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com Mon May 14, 8:15 PM ET

Higher primates such as humans are considered the brainiacs of the mammalian world. But a 29-million-year-old fossilized skull suggests that one of our remote ancestors was a bit of a “pea brain,” sporting a noggin smaller than that of a modern lemur.

The skull belonged to a common ancestor of humans, monkeys and apes.

"This means the big-brained monkeys and apes developed their large brains at a later point in time,” said lead study author Elwyn Simons, a Duke University primatologist.

Until now, scientists had assumed brain size was a key feature that defined higher primates, a category that includes humans, monkeys and apes. The larger brain relative to body size also has provided paleoanthropologists with a physical marker for the evolutionary distinction between higher and lower primates, which include lemurs of Madagascar.

Tiny enough to fit into the palm of your hand, the skull comes from a female Aegyptopithecus zeuxis, which means “linking Egyptian ape.” This early monkey lived about 33 million years ago, a time when primates were evolving rapidly. The cat-size primate ate fruits and leaves in a tropical rainforest in what is now the Fayum in Egypt.

The discovery, published online this week in the journal Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences, sheds light on the evolution of human-like brains .

“The reason Aegyptopithecus is so important is that it’s at the base of the family tree of the Old World higher primates, the group that we’re in,” Simons told LiveScience. “So this is telling us something about the chapter in our own ancestry.”

Small minded

Simons and his team dug up the skull in 2004 from a quarry called the Jebel Qatrani Formation in Egypt. The cranium was so well preserved the team used micro computed-tomography (CT) scanning, which relies on X-rays, to recreate the inside of the skull and calculate dimensions of the brain it once encased.

He had found a similar, but fragmented skull at the site in 1966. Comparing dimensions of the old and new skull suggests the 1996 specimen belonged to a male, while the new skull was that of a female. The size of the female skull suggests it “had a brain that might have been even smaller than that of a modern lemur's," Simons said.

The new skull also suggests the species had a much smaller brain than was previously estimated based on the 1996 skull.

“It’s a little surprising to find out that the brain volume on this thing indicates that maybe the New and Old World monkeys, their common ancestor had a prosimian-, or lower-primate-like brain like Aegyptopithecus does,” Simons said.

Sex differences

The team estimates the female weighed about five and a half pounds, or half the weight of the male. This size difference between males and females, called “sexual dimorphism,” is comparable to that in gorillas, whose genes make them our second-closest relatives next to chimpanzees.

The stark size difference indicates the monkey-like animals were social and hung out in multi-male and multi-female troops of 15 to 20 individuals. “If we infer that an Aegyptopithecus had a large social group, that suggests it had enough sense to tell all of those members apart from nonmembers,” Simons said.

"But other features in these skulls, and in many other Aegyptopithecus fossil pieces collected at the Egyptian site over four decades, suggest that this primate was already branching away from its lemur-like ancestry," he said.

Other features also point to an evolving primate. The skull shows features similar to other higher primates, including a developed visual cortex, suggesting Aegyptopithecus had acute vision. "So the visual sense, which is regarded as a very important feature of anthropoids, or higher primates, had already expanded,” Simons said.

And unlike the prosimians, which run around at night, the animal had small eye sockets and was likely diurnal (awake during daylight) like modern and ancient higher primates.


Because we know how easy it is to just grow a bigger brain.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #224 - May 21st, 2007 at 9:05am
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Reuters
Indonesian fisherman nets ancient fish

Mon May 21, 1:57 AM ET

MANADO, Indonesia (Reuters) - An Indonesian fisherman has caught a coelacanth, an ancient fish once thought to have become extinct at the time of the dinosaurs, a fishery expert said on Monday.
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Yustinus Lahama and his son caught the fish on Saturday in the sea off North Sulawesi province and kept it at their house for an hour, said Grevo Gerung, a professor at the fisheries faculty at the Sam Ratulangi University.

After being told by neighbours it was a rare fish he took it back to the sea and kept it in a quarantine pool for about 17 hours before it died.

"If kept outside their habitat (60 metres or 200 ft below the sea), the fish can only live for two hours. But this fish lived for about 17 hours," Gerung told Reuters.

"We will look into why it had lived that long," he said.

The fish was 131 centimetres (about four feet) long and weighed 51 kg (112 lb), Gerung said.

In 1998, fishermen a caught another coelacanth in a deep-water shark net off northern Sulawesi.

That catch came 60 years after a member of the species was rediscovered on the east coast of South Africa.

Coelacanths are known from the fossil records dating back more than 360 million years, according to the Australian Museum Fish Web site.

Before 1938 they were believed to have become extinct approximately 80 million years ago, when they disappeared from the fossil record, it said.

Coelacanths are the only living animals to have a fully functional intercranial joint, which is a division separating the ear and brain from the nasal organs and eye.


Yes because we all know that according to whichever theory of life you believe in...it's 100% viable with both theories when you believe a species can live more that 360 million years without evolving or going extinct.  Those are some old fish!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #225 - May 21st, 2007 at 12:03pm
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My science is better than your science.

Quote:
Lengthy nanotube crop may mean super-strong fibres
17:22 27 April 2007
NewScientist.com news service
Tom Simonite




Growing lined-up nanotubes over an area several centimetres square brings them closer to mass production (Image: Vesselin Shanov/UC)




Lined-up nanotubes that are 18mm high is a new record (Vesselin Shanov/UC)



A chemical catalyst that grows carbon nanotubes to unprecedented lengths could aid efforts to make super-strong cables from the molecules.

Carbon nanotubes are incredibly strong for their size, which makes them popular with material scientists trying to toughen up existing substances or develop new ones. They have been proposed as an ideal material for making the tether for a space elevator, for example.

But growing carbon nanotubes uniformly, and making sure they are the right size and shape, is difficult. Synthesising large numbers of nanotubes longer than a few millimetres is particularly hard.

Now researchers at Cincinnati University in Ohio, US, have grown lined up nanotubes a record-breaking 18 millimetres tall. They hope that the trick for synthesising them could accelerate the development of light and super-strong cables incorporating the nanotubes.

Aligned clumps
Researchers Vasselin Shanov and Mark Schulz created aligned clumps of multi-walled nanotubes, each 18 millimetres tall and 20 nanometres wide, over an irregular area roughly 10 centimetres by 7cm.

The team presented their results at a NASA-Rice University conference on growing nanotubes in Texas, US, this month. "There's no official competition for length," Shanov says, "but all the top groups in the world were there and acknowledged we have grown the longest aligned arrays."

Researchers have previous made nanotubes that are much longer - up to 4 cm long (see Record breaker). However, these can only be produced in very low numbers and are not in alignment. The previous best for synthesising aligned nanotubes is about 14 millimetres, over an area of about 1 square centimetre.

Hot furnace
The Cincinnati team used a process called chemical vapour deposition to make their lengthy nanotubes. Acetylene or ethylene gas was pumped into a furnace heated to over 1000°C. The furnace also contained a catalyst of an undisclosed composition and structure, which was mounted on a silicon wafer. The nanotubes grew on top of this catalyst-covered surface. The catalyst is currently being patented, hence the secrecy.

Shanov says the structure of the catalyst is key. "The crucial thing is we realised that not only the catalyst but also its support is important to stop the reaction being poisoned by unwanted carbon compounds," he says. "We've made a whole new structure."

Milo Shaffer at Imperial College, London, UK, works on integrating nanotubes into composite materials to make them stronger. He says producing large numbers of long, aligned nanotubes is an attractive prospect: "In principal, they are not entangled and [should be] easier to use."

Shaffer also has little doubt the nanotubes could be used to make strong rope. "But there's a question over how long [the nanotubes] need to be," he says. "Although there is a feeling that longer would be better for fibres, it's not really been tested."


Word to your mother.  I have a feeling that carbon nanotubes will have a bigger impact on our society than plastics did in the 40's and 50's.

Forget the space elevator.  I want lightweight, virtually impenetrable body armor!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #226 - May 21st, 2007 at 1:34pm
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yeah a space elevator would be great, you could go up...then down!  Then in 2 months when NASA loses intrest we can spend trillions more on the next big thing!  Yeah yeah I see the glass as half empty...
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #227 - May 21st, 2007 at 3:23pm
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Just like Wes's mom.  Everyone goes up and down a couple times, then the entire team loses interest.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #228 - May 21st, 2007 at 6:24pm
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I think the space elevator would be safer though.  If you loose people you know that they either plummeted to their deaths or shot out through space...with Wes' mom you'd have to check every fat fold...scientists have explored more of the ocean floor and space combined more than those fat folds!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #229 - May 22nd, 2007 at 2:04pm
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Using History To Design The Future

Visitors to Kennedy Space Center in Florida recently poured into the Saturn V Center and curiously stepped up to a display. They watched as a small group of lab-coated experts surrounded an aluminum box about the size of a file cabinet. The air filled with cautious excitement as the box was slowly unbolted and carefully lowered, exposing the contents for the first time in decades.

With an eye toward the future, the experts were working on a piece of history. NASA had commissioned the team to inspect an umbilical connection from an Apollo-era spacecraft. The agency is seeking to tap the experience of past engineers as it develops Orion, the new crew exploration vehicle for the Constellation Program.

"We're looking at this device to help improve the design for the Orion vehicle, the next-generation manned space vehicle," said Damon Delap, mechanical engineer of NASA's Glenn Research Center in Cleveland. "We're learning from the past and can see that the former engineers did it very well, so we're looking to see what they did."

NASA engineers wanted to inspect an intact Apollo-era umbilical connection, which is used to provide communication, electrical and life support connections to the astronauts in the crew compartment. They were particularly interested in the umbilical release mechanism

But finding one was like looking for a needle in a haystack because, in the Apollo days, the umbilical was severed before the astronauts came back to Earth. A guillotine-like device cut through the all the tubes and wires between the command and service modules before the crew headed home.

"The service module had all the communication and life-sustaining equipment the crew needed (in space) and, before they came back through the atmosphere, the umbilical cord had to be detached," said Dan Catalano, Orion service mechanisms and pyrotechnics lead of Glenn Research Center.

A break finally came by chance when Catalano came across a family's vacation photos posted on the Internet. There he saw the happy family standing in front of the Apollo Command Modules at the Saturn V Complex. And behind them was an umbilical housing! The Apollo spacecraft on display, designated CSM 119, was the backup for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project but never flew. What makes this artifact so significant to the Constellation Program are the housing components located between the command and service modules.

After finding the umbilical housing -- the only one that exists intact in the United States -- NASA spent many months coordinating and planning to prepare for the inspection project. Orion Integration Engineer Tracy Gill of NASA's Kennedy, Delap, Catalano and Lamoreaux gathered at the Saturn V Center to inspect the Apollo-age capsule because of its similarity to the Orion crew compartment.

A few umbilical drawings found at the National Archives in Fort Worth, Texas, gave the engineers a "road map" to what they were seeking. "It was very worthwhile to do this and made the drawings come to life," Dunlap said.

Catalano and Dunlap worked with surgical precision to remove the housing, sometimes using only their gloved fingertips for tools. Every action was photographed, videotaped and documented. They went back and forth checking out the reference materials on a table next to the modules to be sure they were on the right track.

"Seeing the actual housing and all its contents filled in the gaps of the information we needed to take back and work on," said Catalano. "We could see the pieces that were missing in the drawings; we found them through our hands-on inspection."

The goal for the new Crew Exploration Vehicle connection is reusability. The newer design for Orion will not have the same number of tubes and wires because of today's technology, but a lot of the information that comes from this inspection will be combined with the old design that worked for the Apollo days. However, the next-generation crew module will be larger and more technologically advanced.

"It was very important to see how they built the Apollo mechanism because...well, it worked many times and instead of reinventing the wheel...it's good to start with something we know worked," said Lamoreaux. "It was a very valuable experience to come down here. I can use (the findings) to improve my design."

At the end of the inspection, the team members dexterously reassembled the housing, leaving it as they found it. They agreed that a lot will be learned from the trials, tribulations, successes and failures of the Apollo engineers, giving the "new guys" a foundation to build the new Orion vehicle even better.

When asked what it was like to have a chance to work on a piece of history, Catalano said: "For me, it's a very big highlight. I grew up in the Apollo age and used to watch all the launches. I was a product of that era. To be able to come and actually touch the hardware is a real thrill for me."

Although ownership of the Apollo Command and Service Module was transferred by NASA to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington in 1977, it is on permanent display at the Apollo/Saturn V Center at Kennedy.


You'd think someone would've documented that technology!  Either way, I bet the engineers had a blast seeing all that old technology in such pristine shape!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #230 - May 23rd, 2007 at 8:27pm
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I'd love to see them even attempt to prove this hogwash!

Quote:
Study shows primitive fish had genetic wiring for limbs

By Will Dunham 37 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Primitive fish already may have possessed the genetic wiring needed to grow hands and feet well before the appearance of the first animals with limbs roughly 365 million years ago, scientists said on Wednesday.
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University of Chicago researchers were seeking clues behind a momentous milestone in the evolution of life on Earth -- when four-legged amphibians that descended from fish first colonized dry land. These first amphibians paved the way for reptiles, birds and mammals, including people.

"What we're interested in here is the transition from fin to limb -- a great evolutionary event," palaeontologist Neil Shubin, an author of the research with colleagues Marcus Davis and Randall Dahn, said in a telephone interview.

They studied one of the most primitive types of fish on Earth -- the long-snouted paddlefish Polyodon spathula -- and found the fish that predated the first land vertebrates may have possessed genetic underpinnings for limb development.

"What we found is that aspects of the genetic program and the patterns of gene activity that serve to make hands and feet are actually found in the fins of fish -- not just any fish but in primitive living fish," Shubin added.

The research was published in the journal Nature.

Paddlefish, found in freshwater locales in the United States and China, are early "ray-finned" fish. Their fleshy fins are structurally similar to fish predating the first land creatures. Their fins contain cartilage thought to correspond to the upper arm bone of land vertebrates, Shubin said.

While paddlefish are ancient, they did not exist at the time of the vertebrate conquest of land, but are seen as an evolutionary offshoot of some fish around at that time.

GENE PATTERNS

The researchers looked at so-called Hox genes -- which play an important role in limb development -- in paddlefish pectoral fins. They inserted molecular markers to track where these genes are active in the fin, and found the activity pattern resembled what these genes do in limbs of land dwellers.

The findings run counter to the theory that the appearance of limbs was a novel evolutionary occurrence requiring great genetic changes to enable the first limbed creatures to adapt to their new environments of streams and swamps.

The first forests sprouted up roughly 385 million years ago, with towering trees resembling modern-day palms, helping give rise to new freshwater ecosystems.

Shubin and other scientists last year announced the discovery of the remains of a creature called Tiktaalik dating back to 375 million years ago and seen as a missing evolutionary link between fish and the first land vertebrates.

It had fish-like characteristics, but it boasted a skull, neck, ribs and parts of limbs resembling the first amphibians such as Acanthostega that arose 5 to 10 million years later.

"So it seems like you had the genetic tool kit (for limbs) for a long period of time," Shubin said. "And then, when the new ecosystems appear at around the time of Tiktaalik and slightly before, that's when forms started to use that to make true fingers and toes and stuff like that."


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #231 - May 24th, 2007 at 1:55pm
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Swimming dino enters the history books

2 hours, 54 minutes ago

PARIS (AFP) - Twelve footprints found in the bed of an ancient lake in northern Spain have thrown up the first compelling evidence that some land dinosaurs could swim, researchers reported Thursday.
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The 15-metre (48.75-feet) -long track in sandstone "strongly suggests a floating animal clawing the sediment" as it swam against a current, they say.

The swimmer is believed to have been a therapod -- the vast family of carnivorous dinos that included the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex -- which lived in the Early Cretaceous, some 125 million years ago.

The trackway in the former lakebed consists of six asymmetrical pairs of two or three S-shaped scratch marks. Each set measures some 50 centimetres (20 inches) in length and 15 cms (six inches) wide.

The prints paint a beguiling picture of a large, buoyant dinosaur whose clawed feet raked the sediment as it swam in a depth of some 3.2 metres (10.4 feet) of water, according to the paper, which appears in the June issue of the US journal Geology.

Ripple marks on the surface of the site indicate the dinosaur was swimming against a current, struggling to maintain a straight path.

"The dinosaur swam with alternating movements of the two hind limbs, a pelvic paddle swimming motion," said co-author Loic Costeur of the Laboratory for Planetology and Geodynamics at the University of Nantes, western France.

"It is a swimming style of amplified walking, with movements similar to those used by modern bipeds, including aquatic birds."

The question as to whether dinosaurs could swim has been debated for years.

Until now, no firm evidence had come to light, just mysterious "ghost traces" at various sites.

Asked by AFP to speculate as to which dinosaur may have made the tracks, Costeur cautiously pointed to the allosaurus -- a bipedal carnivorous dinosaur with a large skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Some allosauruses could reach more than 10 metres (32 feet) in length.

The discovery opens up new avenues in dinosaur research, said Costeur.

Computer modelling will be able to reveal more about anatomy and biomechanics, "as well as our view of the ecological niches in which they lived."

The Virgen del Campo track is located at the Cameros Basin in La Rioja, at the site of a delta to a former lake. The basin is already known as a treasure trove of footprints of walking theropods.

Lead author is Ruben Ezquerra of the Foundation for Palaeontological Patrimony in La Rioja.


So you're telling me...after a supposed 650 million years we are able to see dino footprints at the bottom of a lake?  Gee I thought some "geologic column" would cover them up telling us for sure that those footprint were made 650 million years ago?  And of course there's no way water could even touch those footprints...at a bottom of a lake...for 650 million years!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #232 - May 24th, 2007 at 2:15pm
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That's just retarded.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #233 - Jun 7th, 2007 at 1:32pm
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'Big Bang' project put off to 2008
POSTED: 11:18 a.m. EDT, June 6, 2007
Story Highlights
• Tests at solving the mysteries of the universe pushed back to 2008
• Scientists want to recreate conditions that existed nanoseconds after the Big Bang
• The tests involve smashing particles together at high speed
• Experiment will also probe invisible "dark matter"

GENEVA, Switzerland (Reuters) -- First tests in a scientific project aimed at solving mysteries of the universe and the "Big Bang" which created it have been put off from November to late April or early May next year, an official said on Wednesday.

James Gillies, spokesman for the CERN particle research center near Geneva, said the delay was due to a series of minor problems with some elements in the vast array of equipment.

"We now intend to make the tests, which will allow the technicians to drive the machine, in late April or early May and then to go into full start up as planned by next summer," Gillies said.

The project at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research which straddles the Swiss and French border, involves smashing particles together at high speed in a channel around an oval-shaped 17 mile underground tunnel.

Researchers on the project, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), say this will recreate in miniature the conditions which existed nanoseconds after the Big Bang some 15 billion years ago and should allow them to see what happened next.

CERN says the experiment will also probe for knowledge about "dark matter" -- the invisible mass of energy that is believed to make up 96 percent of the universe.

The LHC project, involving scientists from CERN's 26 member countries and many other nations in gathering and processing the data from many billions of particle collisions every day, has been in construction for 15 years.

It is expected to be in operation for another 15.

At the center of the experiment, which cost many billions of dollars to set up, are vast magnets in cathedral-size caverns around the tunnel some 300 feet underground.

Originally two weeks of relative low-speed testing of the circuit had been planned for November, just before CERN closes down its particle accelerators for four months to save costly energy during the winter.

But smaller magnets burst during pressure tests at the end of March, and unscheduled work resulting from that incident has meant there would not be sufficient time for the preliminary "driving" tests before the shutdown, Gillies said.


I bet you money that these guys tried to fire it off and all that they did when they opened it to see if they made the universe was a note that said "See Me after class. - God".  It's going to be funny when they realize this has no chance of working next year and they spent all that money on it.

Also they're going to smash particles together (which they've already done before in supercolliders) but aren't they going to have to explain where those particles came from in the nothingness that existed before?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #234 - Jun 10th, 2007 at 10:27am
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Dinosaurs Died Agonizing Deaths

LiveScience Staff

LiveScience.com Sat Jun 9, 10:15 AM ET

Fossilized dinosaurs often have wide-open mouths, heads thrown back and tails that curve toward the head. Paleontologists have long assumed the dinosaurs died in water and the currents drifted the bones into that position, or that rigor mortis or drying muscles, tendons and ligaments contorted the limbs.

"I'm reading this in the literature and thinking, 'This doesn't make any sense to me as a veterinarian,'" said Cynthia Marshall Faux, a veterinarian-turned-paleontologist at the Museum of the Rockies.

Faux and a colleague say brain damage and asphyxiation are the more likely culprits.

A classic example of the posture, which has puzzled paleontologists for ages, is the 150-million-year-old Archaeopteryx, the first-known example of a feathered dinosaur and the proposed link between dinosaurs and present-day birds.

"Virtually all articulated specimens of Archaeopteryx are in this posture, exhibiting a classic pose of head thrown back, jaws open, back and tail reflexed backward and limbs contracted," said Kevin Padian, professor of integrative biology and curator in the Museum of Paleontology at the University of California, Berkeley. He Faux (pronounced "Fox") published their findings this week in the journal Paleobiology.

Some animals found in this posture may have suffocated in ash during a volcanic eruption, consistent with the fact that many fossils are found in ash deposits, Faux and Padian said. But many other possibilities exist, including disease, brain trauma, severe bleeding, thiamine deficiency or poisoning.
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"This puts a whole new light on the mode of death of these animals, and interpretation of the places they died in," Padian said. "This explanation gives us clues to interpreting a great many fossil horizons we didn't understand before and tells us something dinosaurs experienced while dying, not after dying."

Also, because the posture has been seen only in dinosaurs, pterosaurs and mammals, which are known or suspected to have had high metabolic rates, it appears to be a good indicator that the animal was warm blooded, as other research has suggested. Animals with lower metabolic rates, such as crocodiles and lizards, use less oxygen and so might have been less traumatically affected by hypoxia during death throes, Padian said.

Padian acknowledged that many dinosaur fossils show signs that the animal died in water and the current tugged the body into an arched position, but currents cannot explain all the characteristics of an opisthotonic pose.


COME ON SCIENTISTS!!!  IF THIS ISN'T PROOF OF THE FLOOD THEN YOU ARE "WILLFULLY IGNORANT"!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #235 - Jun 10th, 2007 at 8:14pm
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OMG Thats ridiculous!!!! OPEN YOUR EYES SCIENTISTS

caps is fun.

Hey patrick, someone ripped my Jesus Fish off already, the spare is in place, so no worries!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #236 - Jun 11th, 2007 at 12:50am
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NO WAY?!  That is so gay...people need just to leave well enough alone.  Where were you when it was stolen?  If it's at the same place as the last time...stop going there!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #237 - Jun 11th, 2007 at 9:42am
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actually it was parked outside my apartment... so one of my neighbors is a chump.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #238 - Jun 11th, 2007 at 10:57am
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you know anyone with shifty eyes?   If so, it was them!

If that fails, I bet pat stole it!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #239 - Jun 11th, 2007 at 1:32pm
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I lost my Hovind-style Jesus fish when my car was rear-ended by a satanic heathen.  He did it intentionally!

Okay, maybe he was just higher than a kite, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, I need to order another one, but I'm not even sure if they sell them anymore.

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(...could look, but that'd require effort.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #240 - Jun 11th, 2007 at 3:13pm
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ya thats where i got mine,the drdino site. 4 bucks apiece, not bad, get spares in case people feel threatened by them! or are just so mad they rip em off!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #241 - Jun 18th, 2007 at 11:18am
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80,000-year-old Beads Shed Light on Early Culture

Heather Whipps
Special to LiveScience
LiveScience.com 2 hours, 23 minutes ago

Even the very first modern humans may have spruced themselves up with beaded bling.

Twelve shell beads discovered in a cave in eastern Morocco have been dated at more than 80,000 years old, making them one of the earliest examples of human culture. The beads are colored with red ochre and show signs of being strung together.

Similar beads have been found in other parts of Africa and the Middle East, suggesting the first Homo sapiens literally carried their penchant for baubles with them as they populated the world.

"If you draw a triangle covering the three furthest known locations of Homo sapiens between 75,000–120,000 years ago, that triangle stretches from South Africa to Morocco to
Israel," said study co-author Chris Stringer of London's Natural History Museum.

"Shell beads are now known at all three points of that triangle," Stringer added. "So such behavior had probably spread right across the early human range by this time, and would have been carried by modern humans as they dispersed from Africa in the last 100,000 years."

The findings are detailed in a recent issue of the Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences. Oxford University's Institute of Archaeology and Morocco's National Institute for Archaeological Sciences led the project.

The beads found in Morocco aren't the oldest in existence. That title belongs to two tiny shells discovered in Israel in the 1930s and dated at 100,000 years old. The shells are pierced with holes and were probably also hung as pendants or necklaces, archaeologists say.

Combined, the finds hint at the extent of the culture and symbolism being practiced by the earliest modern humans. Art and decoration like the beads are considered good indicators of how human behavior evolved from Africa to other parts of the globe.

"A major question in evolutionary studies today is 'how early did humans begin to think and behave in ways we would see as fundamentally modern?'," said co-author Nick Barton of Oxford University. "The appearance of ornaments such as these may be linked to a growing sense of self-awareness and identity among humans."

Some researchers have suggested that humans didn't become culturally modern until they reached Europe about 35,000 years ago. But Europe, which doesn't show evidence of similar jewelry or customs until much later, actually lagged behind in cultural development, Stringer said.

"This research shows that a long lasting and widespread bead-working tradition associated with early modern humans extended through Africa to the Middle East well before comparable evidence appears in Europe," Stringer said in a 2006 prepared statement, commenting on the just-released, very ancient dates for the Israeli beads.

"Modern human anatomy and behavior have deep roots in Africa and were widespread by 75,000 years ago, even though they may not have appeared in Europe for another 35,000 years," he said.


I love how they just tell us they dated these things at 80K years.  I would have no clue how they even attempted to date these things.  Uhh ya we found these in some rock layers and we'll just call it 80K years give or take 80K years.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #242 - Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:34pm
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Against All Odds, Sex Has Returned
A mite reevolves sex after hundreds of millions of years without it.
by Robert Liota

Richard Dawkins said it was statistically improbable; Louis Dollo, a French paleontologist, famously developed a hypothesis stating that it could never happen. But a tiny soil mite smaller than a pinhead has reevolved the ability to mate, according to a study by evolutionary geneticists Katja Domes of the Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany, and Roy Norton of the SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse.

After analyzing various mites’ DNA, the duo concluded that the sexually reproducing Crotoniidae mite is a descendant of Camisiidae mites, which have reproduced asexually for hundreds of millions of years since they themselves evolved from a sexually reproducing ancestor. Through a process called parthenogenesis, Camisiidae females typically lay eggs that are exact copies of themselves. Although males are born every once in a while, they are always sterile. Or so it was thought.

“Those rare males may have enabled Crotoniidae to reevolve sex,” says Domes. Usually when traits fall into disuse, their corresponding genes quickly mutate to code for something else. So when something as complex as the ability to produce sex gametes is lost, it’s likely never to be developed again. Oddly, the Camisiidae mites seem to have retained that ability, despite surviving millions of years without using it.


So what you're telling me is that they found some mites who weren't asexual and that proves evolution?  Also it seems like they've been sexual before...so doesn't that just mean a gene that's ressive is coming up in the the genetic make up to this day?

This is a bit like saying...my entire family but my 10th great grandfather had brown eyes and he had blue...and now I have blue eyes.

Yep...evolution!  It's where you get things like feet and lungs because fish use to have them way back in the day.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #243 - Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:51pm
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After analyzing various mites’ DNA, the duo concluded that the sexually reproducing Crotoniidae mite is a descendant of Camisiidae mites, which have reproduced asexually for hundreds of millions of years


So. They look at this new mite. they see them doing something they hadn't really saw before and assume that a new trait has formed?

Quote:
Oddly, the Camisiidae mites seem to have retained that ability, despite surviving millions of years without using it.


Who said they didn't use it now? Where you there?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #244 - Jun 20th, 2007 at 1:47pm
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Sometimes it feels like arguing with a brick wall.  They just don't get it...

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #245 - Jul 5th, 2007 at 11:56am
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This is a real horse/zebra

LOOK!  LOOK!  PROOF OF EVOLUTION!  THIS PROVES WE ALL EVOLVED FROM THE BANANA!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #246 - Jul 5th, 2007 at 2:14pm
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I am a BANANA!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #247 - Jul 5th, 2007 at 2:53pm
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I am the walrus...oh wait...no
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #248 - Jul 5th, 2007 at 2:59pm
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koo koo kachoo?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #249 - Jul 5th, 2007 at 4:52pm
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Peanut butter jelly time!  Peanut butter jelly time!  Peanut butter jelly with a baseball bat!

Smiley

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #250 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 4:48pm
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Virgin Komodo dragon gives birth

Mother never even exposed to males; breakthrough raises scientists’ hopes

The Associated Press

Updated: 9:48 a.m. CT Jan 25, 2007

CHESTER, England - Scientists unveiled five squirmy black and yellow Komodo dragons Wednesday that were the product of a virgin birth, predicting that the hatchlings offered hope for breeding the endangered species.

Flora, the Komodo dragon, has produced five hatchlings although a male has never been close to her, the proud staff at the Chester Zoo said.

“Flora is oblivious to the excitement she has caused, but we are delighted to say she is now a mum and dad,” said a delighted Kevin Buley, the zoo’s curator of lower vertebrates and invertebrates.

The shells began cracking last week, after an eight-month gestation period, which culminated with arrival on Tuesday of the fifth dragon. Two more eggs remained to be hatched.

“The implications for conservation breeding programs are enormous because this opens up a new way that animals can potentially colonize an island,” Buley said. “A female could swim to a new island, lay a clutch of eggs, then mate with sons and be sexually producing normally within a generation.”

The dragons range from 16 inches to nearly 18 inches long (40 to 45 centimeters) and weigh between 3½ and 4½ ounces (100 to 125 grams), Buley said.

Eating crickets and locusts
The hatchlings were in good health and feeding on a diet of crickets and locusts.

When fully grown to 10 feet (3 meters) long and weighing about 300 pounds (135 kilograms), they’ll be capable of eating a whole pig or deer at one sitting, hooves and all.

That ravenous appetite explains why Flora isn’t allowed anywhere near her offspring.

“No maternal instincts exist in Komodos so it is perfectly natural to keep them as far apart as possible,” Buley said. “She would try to eat anything that comes in front of her.”


About 70 reptile species including snakes and lizards are known to reproduce asexually in a process known as parthenogenesis. But Flora’s virginal conception, and that of another Komodo dragon in April at the London Zoo, are the first documented in Komodo dragons.

The two virgin conceptions were announced in September in a scientific paper in the journal Nature.

Endangered lizards
Komodos are native to the arid volcanic Lesser Sunda Islands in Indonesia, and are named for the island where they were discovered in 1910.

The giant lizards are considered endangered, with fewer than 4,000 surviving in the wild and facing encroachment from humans.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16784022/



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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #251 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 6:04pm
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Look they're evolving.....back into asexual creatures.  Dang looks like evolution is proven to be wrong again!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #252 - Jul 12th, 2007 at 10:47pm
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Proof of evolution?

Quote:
Samoa butterflies quickly evolve and avoid extinction

By Julie Steenhuysen Thu Jul 12, 2:23 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - When faced with extinction, butterflies on two South Pacific islands quickly developed genetic defences that helped them fight back, a team of international researchers said on Tuesday.


Yep this sure does prove that we evolved from non-living material 60 million years ago.  Let's read on shall we, so I can finally but this Bible down.

Quote:
They said the butterflies' tale is the fastest example of natural selection observed to date and shows evolution can happen quickly when the stakes are high.

In 2001, male Hypolimnas bolina butterflies on the Samoan islands of Savaii and Upolu were extremely rare. Just 1 percent of these butterflies -- known commonly as Blue Moon or Great Eggfly -- were male. They were under attack by the Wolbachia bacteria, a parasite passed down through the female that kills off male butterflies before they can hatch.

Last year, the numbers of males had either reached or were approaching those of females. They were helped by the development of a genetic mutation that suppresses the bacteria, sparing the males and allowing them to quickly repopulate.


Amazing the loss of information in the genetic code helped them to defeat the bacteria.  It'd be like cutting off your legs to stop from getting athlete's foot.  Yes you don't have to worry about it but you've got no legs (please no Black Knight jokes). 

Quote:
"This is one of the most clear and fastest cases of evolution under natural selection," said Sylvain Charlat of University College London, whose study appears in the journal Science.


Actually wouldn't natural selection say, "Ya know you're not well suited for your environment...I'm going to kill you all off now."  Not to mention...how do these scientists know about all of these butterflies?  Do they know each by name and where they all go constantly?

Quote:
To test whether the male butterflies' resurgence was due to genetic changes in the butterflies or changes in the parasite, he and colleagues bred infected female butterflies with butterflies from a different island that did not have the genetic mutation.

The butterfly offspring of this pairing were then bred with butterflies from a non-infected island to dilute the gene that suppressed the parasite.

"After we did that for three generations, we came back to complete male killing," Charlat said in a telephone interview.

"That demonstrated that the observed pattern was due to suppression and not due to another phenomenon," he said.


Ok I think he just pulled the "Pick your card" scam on me!  His crew took a whole lot of presuppositions in their experimentations.

Quote:
The researchers are not sure whether the gene that suppressed the parasite emerged by chance from a mutation in the local population or whether it was introduced by migratory Southeast Asian butterflies in which the mutation existed.


LOL!!!  ATTENTION ATTENTION!!! READ THE ABOVE AGAIN.  So it could be the males "evolved" or whether a new bread came in that were already predisposed to resistance.  Isn't that kind of...important?!  You have male butterfly A and male butterfly B.  A is dying out and the females are killing them (kinda like real life).  B comes in and is resistant to the female's evil diseases.  That isn't bloody evolution...that's bloody females moving from the skinny, white geek to the muscular, tan guy who kicks sand in the geeks eyes!

Quote:
What is clear, they said, is the repopulation of male butterflies illustrates rapid natural selection, a process in which traits that help a species survive become more prominent in a population.


Not if another species comes in and takes over populating the other species!

Quote:
Natural selection typically moves very slowly, sometimes over hundreds of years, they said, but when under severe attack, this process was accelerated.

"It is the speed of the process that demonstrates the intensity of the selection," Charlat said.

"The take-home message is that evolution can be really, really fast."


Darn!  *Picks the Bible back up*...looks like God still loves me.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #253 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:49pm
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Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or Personal Message. YaBBC code may be be used in your signature.  Duh!
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #254 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 1:10pm
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doing something differently because it requires less energy?  yeah sounds like me.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #255 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 2:06pm
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You got it Stick...it makes no sense.  If it was easier to walk upright then shouldn't more animals do it?  Not to mention this violates the "those best suited for their environment are more likely to survive".  That would mean monkeys, or their ancestors, would have to leave their natural habitat and start going to the plain areas where there's open space to walk.  How they survived the lions and other predators seem remarkable to me.  God knows how that happened...oops...Science knows how that happened...oops...Science doesn't know anything and has become dogmatic...ya there we go.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #256 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 2:24pm
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That article reminds me of a time in my organismal biology class when my lab teacher said that humans might evolve smaller feet becuase we wear shoes. I asked how natural selection would select for smaller feet and she didn't have an answer.

Again, I would like to know how natural selection would effect low energy walking evolution.  Do many chimps lie down and die becuase they were too tired from walking?  This story is weak, but its the same old lackluster assertions (propaganda) we're used to.

Are these the results? Quote:
Overall, the chimpanzees used about the same amount of energy walking on two legs compared to four legs, but the researchers saw differences among the individual animals in how much energy they used based on their gaits and anatomy.
  how embarassing..

  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #257 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 2:25pm
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Science damn you pat!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #258 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 3:01pm
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Ohhh....my....science!!!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #259 - Jul 19th, 2007 at 9:09am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6904675.stm
Quote:
Britain became separated from mainland Europe after a catastrophic flood some time before 200,000 years ago, a sonar study of the English Channel confirms.

The images reveal deep scars on the Channel bed that must have been cut by a sudden, massive discharge of water.

Scientists tell the journal Nature that the torrent probably came from a giant lake in what is now the North Sea.



That's nice. How about The Flood, about 4500 years ago?
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #260 - Jul 19th, 2007 at 9:43am
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But... but... but... that's not science!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #261 - Jul 25th, 2007 at 11:32pm
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Creationism museum undergoes growing pains
Old Testament exhibits, rides attract more than 100,000 visitors to Ky.      

PETERSBURG, Ky. - Less than two months after opening, a northern Kentucky museum dedicated to promoting creationism has drawn 100,000 visitors, causing some growing pains, museum officials said.

The milestone visit — the honor went to a Buffalo, N.Y., family — means the $27 million museum is on pace to easily shatter the first-year attendance projection of 250,000 visits, officials said.

“We’re pretty pleased with the response,” said Mike Zovath, vice president of museum operations.
Story continues below ↓advertisement

The 60,000-square foot museum’s first weeks have been highlighted by packed parking lots, long lines to get in and — from critics — skepticism about the museum’s claims about science, faith and the origins of the earth.

Evolution is derided at the museum, which is packed with high-tech exhibits designed by an acclaimed theme-park artist, animatronic dinosaurs and a huge wooden ark. In this Old Testament version of history, dinosaurs appeared on the same day God created other land animals.

The museum also contains fossils, hung in large glass cases in a room visitors spill into after taking a tour of Old Testament history. Museum officials said most fossils were created by the massive flood detailed in the book of Genesis.

The museum is petitioning to add 650 spaces to the parking lot, which currently has about 500 spaces available. The museum would also like to add a canopy over the entrance to protect people waiting in line from the weather.


Nifty

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #262 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 8:58am
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Who are they petitioning?  If they own the land, build the freakin' parking lot.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #263 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 2:18pm
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KY is probably just as bad as anywhere else when it comes to building codes and taxes it levies on them.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #264 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 3:32pm
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http://stromdotcom.blogspot.com/2007/07/shark-with-webbed-feet.html

Well this article certainly destroys my belief in God...thanks a lot science!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #265 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 4:55pm
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X wrote on Jul 26th, 2007 at 2:18pm:
KY is probably just as bad as anywhere else...


I dunno, I'm sure KY has its uses.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #266 - Jul 26th, 2007 at 5:54pm
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Along with the above posted "proof" from the blogging community (lol) here's more proof that dinosaurs had sex with apricots to produce birds.

  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #267 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:10am
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That looks like a hoax.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #268 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:22am
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what are you, kidding?  This is proof, you cannot just PUT a bird embryo in an apricot, it must be born there!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #269 - Jul 31st, 2007 at 11:21am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070731/sc_nm/hungary_forest_dc

Quote:
Hungarian scientists said on Tuesday they have discovered a group of fossilized swamp cypress trees preserved from 8 million years ago which could provide clues about the climate of pre-historic times.

Instead of petrifying -- turning to stone -- the wood of 16 Taxodium trees was preserved in an open-cast coal mine allowing geologists to study samples as if they were sections cut from a piece of living wood.

"The importance of the findings is that so many trees got preserved in their original position in one place," Alfred Dulai, geologist at the Hungarian Natural History Museum said.

"But the real rarity about these trees is that ... their original wood got preserved ... they did not turn into stone."


Aside from the blah blah blah about evolutionary timeframes, this is a pretty cool find from the Flood.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20070731/2007_07_31t091859_450x317_us_hungary...
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #270 - Jul 31st, 2007 at 2:09pm
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Yeah, I wonder how they explain all that coal forming around the tree before it could fossilize or turn to dust?

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #271 - Aug 3rd, 2007 at 8:04pm
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New Fossils Support Deep-Sea Origin of Life

By Dave Mosher, LiveScience Staff Writer

Geologists have discovered 1.43 billion-year-old fossils of deep-sea microbes, providing more evidence that life may have originated on the bottom of the ocean.

The ancient black smoker chimneys, which scientists unearthed in a Chinese mine, are 1 billion years older than similar fossils previously identified and are nearly identical to the archaea- and bacteria-harboring structures found today on sea beds.

"These are remnants of the oldest living types of life forms on the planet," said Timothy Kusky, a geologist at Saint Louis University and co-author of a new study that describes the fossils.

Kusky said that the fossils offer "tantalizing suggestions" that life developed near deep-sea hydrothermal vents and not in shallow seas, as other evidence hints.

Black smoker chimneys develop at submerged openings in the Earth's crust that spew out mineral-rich water as hot as 752 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius). Bacteria that don't depend on sunlight or oxygen move into the fragile chimneys that grow around the vents and feed on the dissolved minerals.

"Some people like to call it life in extreme environments. These bacteria pretty much live on a different planet compared to conditions we live in," Kusky told LiveScience.

The stony chimneys can grow more 50 feet (15 meters) tall, but retrieving even a modern chimney sample is extremely difficult, as they're fragile and can crumble when touched.

"This discovery offers scientists valuable on-land samples for geological and geo-biological research," Kusky said, noting that some of the fossils he unearthed measure a whopping 3 feet in length.

The age and size of the chimneys, Kusky said, will help scientists understand how ancient hydrothermal vent growth and the development of life on the sea floor might be interconnected.

Although the fossils may be old, they aren't the oldest evidence of life on Earth. The most ancient specimens are 3.5 billion-year-old, dome-shaped clumps of bacteria called stromatolites, which were found in western Australia and suggest that shallow seas were the birthplace of life.

Ed Mathez, a geologist and curator at the American Museum of Natural History in New York who is not connected to the discovery, said even with stromatolites the verdict on life's origin is out.

"They tell us life existed that long ago, but as to where it originated remains an open question," Mathez said.

Mathez pointed out that black smoker fossils are just as inconclusive about the origin of life , but added that the new finding significantly pushes back the known reign of deep-sea microbes.

"Personally, a deep-sea origin of life strikes me as a very good possibility," he said.

In the end, Kusky said, there may yet be even older black smoker chimney fossils waiting to be discovered.

"So far, these fossils provide oldest evidence for deep-sea life," he said. His team's findings are detailed in the current issue of the journal Gondwana Research.


Ok first of all how can they even carbon date that?  Wouldn't the huge amount of carbon that are produced by the vents greatly add to the carbon they date?!

Also, if you were even to believe the dating system how do they draw the conclusion that life formed from those microbes?  It just looks to me as if they are simple cell organisms...I don't see them sprouting lungs or a brain or anything to lead anyone to conclude that we evolved from them.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #272 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 4:55pm
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Study finds twist in human evolution

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer 2 hours, 38 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Surprising fossils dug up in Africa are creating messy kinks in the iconic straight line of human evolution with its knuckle-dragging ape and briefcase-carrying man.

The new research by famed paleontologist Meave Leakey in Kenya shows our family tree is more like a wayward bush with stubby branches, calling into question the evolution of our ancestors.


You mean science is going back on something they "knew" before?!  It's amazing...it's almost like they were wrong at one point in time but are changing their minds based on evidence they find!  Shocking!

Quote:
The old theory was that the first and oldest species in our family tree, Homo habilis, evolved into Homo erectus, which then became us, Homo sapiens. But those two earlier species lived side-by-side about 1.5 million years ago in parts of Kenya for at least half a million years, Leakey and colleagues report in a paper published in Thursday's journal Nature.

In 2000 Leakey found an old Homo erectus complete skull within walking distance of an upper jaw of the Homo habilis, and both dated from the same general time period. That makes it unlikely that one evolved from the other, researchers said.


Within walking distance?  First of all, way to be scientific...second of all so what?  They were both in the same layer...maybe some homo sapien was eating them or one of them dug up the jaw bone.  It's like scientists think these bones just never move until they find them.

Quote:
It's the equivalent of finding that your grandmother and great-grandmother were sisters rather than mother-daughter, said study co-author Fred Spoor, a professor of evolutionary anatomy at the University College in London.


Ya if I was looking at my grandmother and great-grandmother's bones instead of DNA structures or anything else.  You can't tell anything about these bones except what those specific organisms were like.

Quote:
The two species lived near each other, but probably didn't interact with each other, each having their own "ecological niche," Spoor said. Homo habilis was likely more vegetarian and Homo erectus ate some meat, he said. Like chimps and apes, "they'd just avoid each other, they don't feel comfortable in each other's company," he said.


But they were within walking distance.  Doesn't that tell you that they at least saw each other and so shared something in common?  I don't understand how this guy draws his conclusion based on a skull and a jaw bone.  That's another thing!  It's only a skull and a jaw bone...where's the rest of them?!

Quote:
They have some still-undiscovered common ancestor that probably lived 2 million to 3 million years ago, a time that has not left much fossil record, Spoor said.


Ohhh a "still undiscovered" common ancestor.  What do you think this guy would say after he asks me for proof of God and I tell him "I just have discovered it yet".  Do you think he'd be like...well ok then I'm a believer...or would he laugh at me and say that's what creationists always say bah ha ha ha.  Also how come 2 to 3 million years ago are bad for finding fossils yet we find other older than that?  Wouldn't that be common sense with all these layers of strata coming down every million years or so?

Quote:
Overall what it paints for human evolution is a "chaotic kind of looking evolutionary tree rather than this heroic march that you see with the cartoons of an early ancestor evolving into some intermediate and eventually unto us," Spoor said in a phone interview from a field office of the Koobi Fora Research Project in northern Kenya.


Hmm they laugh at me because my faith is based mainly on a Book and his science is based on a one panel cartoon?  Ya...I'm the moron.

Quote:
That old evolutionary cartoon, while popular with the general public, keeps getting proven wrong and too simple, said Bill Kimbel, who praised the latest findings. He is science director of the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona State University and wasn't involved in the research team.

"The more we know, the more complex the story gets," he said. Scientists used to think Homo sapiens evolved from Neanderthals, he said, but now know that both species lived during the same time period and that we did not come from Neanderthals.


Crap scientists are wrong again.  I wonder what's going to happen when they find our we don't even evolve from anyone because all these species are living with each other.  Man that's got to suck to try and BS your way out of an entire school of study.

Quote:
Now a similar discovery applies further back in time.

Leakey's team spent seven years analyzing the fossils before announcing their findings that it was time to redraw the family tree — and rethink other ideas about human evolutionary history, especially about our most immediate ancestor, Homo erectus.


Why does it take so long to look at a skull and a jaw bone?!  Hmm....hmmm....7 years later....hmmm....ok this skull doesn't go with this jawbone so that means there's something we got wrong again!  Crap!

Quote:
Because the Homo erectus skull Leakey recovered was much smaller than others, scientists had to first prove that it was erectus and not another species nor a genetic freak. The jaw, probably from an 18- or 19-year-old female, was adult and showed no signs of any type of malformations or genetic mutations, Spoor said. The scientists also know it isn't Homo habilis from several distinct features on the jaw.


How do you know which are not genetic mutants and which ones are?  When all you're dealing with are 2 pieces of the entire thing I bet it's a bit hard to do.

Quote:
That caused researchers to re-examine the 30 other erectus skulls they have and the dozens of partial fossils. They realized that the females of that species are much smaller than the males — something different from modern man, but similar to other animals, said study co-author Susan Anton, a New York University anthropologist. Scientists hadn't looked carefully enough before to see that there was a distinct difference in males and females.


What?!  Scientists aren't really studying these so called early ancestors?  Geez I hope these guys get a billion dollars in grants every year for their hard work...good job there guys.

Quote:
Difference in size between males and females seem to be related to monogamy, the researchers said. Primate species that have same-sized males and females, such as gibbons, tend to be more monogamous. Species that are not monogamous, such as gorillas and baboons, have much bigger males.

This suggests that our ancestor Homo erectus reproduced with multiple partners.


Wow...that's a bit of a stretch don't ya think?  How many other species does that apply to?

Quote:
The Homo habilis jaw was dated at 1.44 million years ago. That is the youngest ever found from a species that scientists originally figured died off somewhere between 1.7 and 2 million years ago, Spoor said. It enabled scientists to say that the two species lived at the same time.

All the changes to human evolutionary thought should not be considered a weakness in the theory of evolution, Kimbel said. Rather, those are the predictable results of getting more evidence, asking smarter questions and forming better theories, he said.


Yes because when your data doesn't fit the theory...don't change the theory...just tact on more outlandishness so you don't have to erase the chalkboard and start all over again!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #273 - Aug 14th, 2007 at 2:15pm
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Global warming? Look at the numbers
Lorne Gunter, National Post
Published: Monday, August 13, 2007

In his enviro-propaganda flick, An Inconvenient Truth, Al Gore claims nine of the 10 hottest years on record have occurred in the last decade. That's been a common refrain for environmentalists, too, and one of the centrepieces of global warming hysteria: It's been really hot lately -- abnormally hot -- so we all need to be afraid, very afraid. The trouble is, it's no longer true.

Last week, NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies -- whose temperature records are a key component of the global-warming claim (and whose director, James Hansen, is a sort of godfather of global-warming alarmism) -- quietly corrected an error in its data set that had made recent temperatures seem warmer than they really were.

A little less than a decade ago, the U.S. government changed the way it recorded temperatures. No one thought to correlate the new temperatures with the old ones, though -- no one until Canadian researcher Steve McIntyre, that is.

McIntyre has become the bane of many warmers' religious-like belief in climate catastrophe. In 2003, along with economist Ross McKitrick, McIntyre demolished the Mann "hockey stick" --a graph that showed stable temperatures for 1,000 years, then shooting up dangerously in the last half of the 20th Century.

The graph was used prominently by the UN and nearly every major eco lobby. But McIntyre and McKitrick demonstrated it was based on incomplete and inaccurate data.

To NASA's credit, when McIntyre pointed out their temperature errors they quickly made corrections.

Still, the pro-warmers who dominate the Goddard Institute almost certainly recognized the impacts these changes would have on the global-warming debate, because they made no formal announcement of their recalculations.

In many cases, the changes are statistically minor, but their potential impact on the rhetoric surrounding global warming is huge.

The hottest year since 1880 becomes 1934 instead of 1998, which is now just second; 1921 is third.

Four of the 10 hottest years were in the 1930s, only three in the past decade. Claiming that man-made carbon dioxide has caused the natural disasters of recent years makes as much sense as claiming fossil-fuel burning caused the Great Depression.

The 15 hottest years since 1880 are spread over seven decades. Eight occurred before atmospheric carbon dioxide began its recent rise; seven occurred afterwards.

In other words, there is no discernible trend, no obvious warming of late.

Ever since the correction became a hot topic on blogs, the pro-warmers have tried to downplay its significance, insisting, for example, that the alterations merely amount to "very minor rearrangements in the various rankings."

It's true the changes aren't dramatic. But the optics are.

Imagine if the shoe were on the other foot. Imagine the shrieking of the warmers if we had previously thought that hot years were scattered throughout the past 130 years, but after a correction the warmest years could be seen to be concentrated in the past decade.

They would insist the revised data proved their case. They would blitz every news organization and talk show. They would demand to be allowed to indoctrinate school children on the evils of cars and factories.

So they shouldn't be permitted to brush aside this new data, which makes their claims harder to prove.

Ten years ago, warmers found a similarly small error in the temperature data collected by weather satellites. The satellites were a thorn in their sides because while the warmers were insisting the Earth was getting hotter, the satellites showed it was in fact cooling ever so slightly.

Then the warmers discovered that the scientists who maintained the orbiting thermometers had failed to account for orbital decay, the almost infinitesimally small downward drift of the "birds" every year.

When the effects of drift were added into the observations, the cooling was found to be just 0.01 degree per decade rather than the 0.04 degrees previously claimed.

On this basis, the warmers now insisted then that even the satellites were somehow in agreement with their theory.

Of course, the current NASA changes are only for data collected in the United States. But available surface temperature readings cover only half the planet even today. Before the Second World War, they covered less than a quarter. So U.S. readings for a period that goes as far back as 1880 are among the most reliable there are.

Perhaps we will have uncontrollable warming in the future, but it likely hasn't started yet.


Well darn, isn't that an inconvenient truth?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #274 - Aug 14th, 2007 at 5:50pm
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Those conservative bastards at FOX!!! I bet they're putting out this disinfo to discourage us from our work in appearing to care about the environment!

BAN DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE!!! IT'S IN EVERYTHING!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #275 - Aug 14th, 2007 at 9:08pm
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Dihydrogen Monoxide! That sounds dangerous! Ban it!!!! Boy howdy, I sure wouldn't want to ingest that! Heaven forbid that it gets into our water supply!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #276 - Aug 14th, 2007 at 10:53pm
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And chemical companies use it and nuclear power plants use tons and tons of it.  Not to mention it's in pesticides and could even get into your baby's formula!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #277 - Aug 16th, 2007 at 1:06am
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Esquire does a huge hit piece on the Creation Museum...(oh a side note...I don't know if many of you people read the Digg comments but there's A LOT of anti-Christian/anti-Creation people on there...it's sad that something they don't even believe in makes them mad)

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Greetings From Idiot America

Creationism. Intelligent Design. Faith-based this. Trust-your-gut that. There's never been a better time to espouse, profit from, and believe in utter, unadulterated crap. And the crap is rising so high, it's getting dangerous.

By Charles P. Pierce (more from this author)

11/1/2005, 12:00 AM
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There is some undeniable art--you might even say design--in the way southern Ohio rolls itself into northern Kentucky. The hills build gently under you as you leave the interstate. The roads narrow beneath a cool and thickening canopy as they wind through the leafy outer precincts of Hebron--a small Kentucky town named, as it happens, for the place near Jerusalem where the Bible tells us that David was anointed the king of the Israelites. This resulted in great literature and no little bloodshed, which is the case with a great deal of Scripture.

At the top of the hill, just past the Idlewild Concrete plant, there is an unfinished wall with an unfinished gate in the middle of it. Happy, smiling people are trickling in through the gate this fine morning, one minivan at a time. They park in whatever shade they can find, which is not much. It's hot as hell this morning.

They are almost uniformly white and almost uniformly bubbly. Their cars come from Kentucky and Tennessee and Ohio and Illinois and as far away as New Brunswick, Canada. There are elderly couples in shorts, suburban families piling out of the minivans, the children all Wrinkle-Resistant and Stain-Released. There is a clutch of Mennonite women in traditional dress--small bonnets and long skirts. All of them wander off, chattering and waving and stopping every few steps for pictures, toward a low-slung building that seems from the outside to be the most finished part of the complex.

Outside, several of them stop to be interviewed by a video crew. They have come from Indiana, one woman says, two toddlers toddling at her feet, because they have been home-schooling their children and they have given them this adventure as a kind of field trip. The whole group then bustles into the lobby of the building, where they are greeted by the long neck of a huge, herbivorous dinosaur. The kids run past that and around a corner, where stands another, smaller dinosaur.

Which is wearing a saddle.

It is an English saddle, hornless and battered. Apparently, this was a dinosaur used for dressage competitions and stakes races. Any working dinosaur accustomed to the rigors of ranch work and herding other dinosaurs along the dusty trail almost certainly would wear a sturdy western saddle.

This is very much a show dinosaur.

The dinosaurs are the first things you see when you enter the Creation Museum, which is very much a work in progress and the dream child of an Australian named Ken Ham. Ham is the founder of Answers in Genesis, an organization of which the museum one day will be the headquarters. The people here today are on a special tour. They have paid $149 to become "charter members" of the museum.

"Dinosaurs," Ham laughs as he poses for pictures with his visitors, "always get the kids interested."

AIG is dedicated to the proposition that the biblical story of the creation of the world is inerrant in every word. Which means, in this interpretation and among other things, that dinosaurs coexisted with man (hence the saddles), that there were dinosaurs in Eden, and that Noah, who certainly had enough on his hands, had to load two brachiosaurs onto the Ark along with his wife, his sons, and their wives, to say nothing of green ally-gators and long-necked geese and humpty-backed camels and all the rest.

(Faced with the obvious question of how to keep a three-hundred-by-thirty-by-fifty-cubit ark from sinking under the weight of dinosaur couples, Ham's literature argues that the dinosaurs on the Ark were young ones, and thus did not weigh as much as they might have.)

"We," Ham exclaims to the assembled, "are taking the dinosaurs back from the evolutionists!" And everybody cheers.

Ham then goes on to celebrate the great victory won in Oklahoma, where, in the first week of June, Tulsa park officials announced a decision (later reversed) to put up a display at the city zoo based on Genesis so as to eliminate the "discrimination" long inflicted upon sensitive Christians by a statue of the Hindu god Ganesh that decorated the elephant exhibit.

This is a serious crowd. They gather in the auditorium and they listen intently, and they take copious notes as Ham draws a straight line from Adam's fall to our godless public schools, from Darwin to gay marriage. He talks about the triumph over Ganesh, and everybody cheers again.

Ultimately, the heart of the museum will be a long walkway down which patrons will be able to journey through the entire creation story. This, too, is still in the earliest stages of construction. Today, for example, one young artist is working on a scale model of the moment when Adam names all the creatures. Adam is in the delicate process of naming the saber-toothed tiger while, behind him, already named, a woolly mammoth seems to be on the verge of taking a nap.

Elsewhere in the museum, another Adam figure is full-size, if unpainted, and waiting to be installed. This Adam is reclining peacefully; eventually, if the plans stay true, he will be placed in a pool under a waterfall. As the figure depicts a prelapsarian Adam, he is completely naked. He also has no penis.

This would seem to be a departure from Scripture inconsistent with the biblical literalism of the rest of the museum. If you're willing to stretch Job's description of a "behemoth" to include baby brachiosaurs on Noah's Ark, as Ham does in his lectures, then surely, since we are depicting him before the fall, Adam should be out there waving unashamedly in the paradisaical breezes. For that matter, what is Eve doing there, across the room, with her hair falling just so to cover her breasts and midsection, as though she's doing a nude scene from some 1950s Swedish art-house film?

After all, Genesis 2:25 clearly says that at this point in their lives, "And the man and his wife were both naked, and they were not ashamed." If Adam courageously sat there unencumbered while he was naming saber-toothed tigers, then why, six thousand years later, should he be depicted as a eunuch in some family-values Eden? And if these people can take away what Scripture says was rightfully his, then why can't Charles Darwin and the accumulated science of the past 150-odd years take away all the rest of it?

These are impolite questions. Nobody asks them here by the cool pond tucked into a gentle hillside. Increasingly, nobody asks them outside the gates, either. It is impolite to wonder why our parents sent us all to college, and why generations of immigrants sweated and bled so their children could be educated, if it wasn't so that we would all one day feel confident enough to look at a museum filled with dinosaurs rigged to run six furlongs at Belmont and make the not unreasonable point that it is all batshit crazy and that anyone who believes this righteous hooey should be kept away from sharp objects and his own money.

Dinosaurs with saddles?

Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark?

Welcome to your new Eden.

Welcome to Idiot America.

Let's take a tour, shall we? For the sake of time, we'll just cover the last year or so.

A federally funded abstinence program suggests that HIV can be transmitted through tears. An Alabama legislator proposes a bill to ban all books by gay authors. The Texas House passes a bill banning suggestive cheerleading. And nobody laughs at any of it, or even points out that, in the latter case, having Texas ban suggestive cheerleading is like having Nebraska ban corn.

James Dobson, a prominent conservative Christian spokesman, compares the Supreme Court to the Ku Klux Klan. Pat Robertson, another prominent conservative preacher, says that federal judges are a more serious threat to the country than is Al Qaeda and, apparently taking his text from the Book of Gambino, later sermonizes that the United States should get with it and snuff the democratically elected president of Venezuela.

The Congress of the United States intervenes to extend into a televised spectacle the prolonged death of a woman in Florida. The majority leader of the Senate, a physician, pronounces a diagnosis based on heavily edited videotape. The majority leader of the House of Representatives argues against cutting-edge research into the use of human stem cells by saying that "an embryo is a person. . . . We were all at one time embryos ourselves. So was Abraham. So was Muhammad. So was Jesus of Nazareth." Nobody laughs at him or points out that the same could be said of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or whoever invented the baby-back rib.

And, finally, in August, the cover of Time--for almost a century the dyspeptic voice of the American establishment--clears its throat, hems and haws and hacks like a headmaster gagging on his sherry, and asks, quite seriously: "Does God have a place in science class?"

Fights over evolution--and its faddish new camouflage, intelligent design, a pseudoscience that posits without proof or method that science is inadequate to explain existence and that supernatural causes must be considered--roil up school districts across the country. The president of the United States announces that he believes ID ought to be taught in the public schools on an equal footing with the theory of evolution. And in Dover, Pennsylvania, during one of these many controversies, a pastor named Ray Mummert delivers the line that both ends our tour and, in every real sense, sums it up:

"We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

And there it is.

Idiot America is not the place where people say silly things. It's not the place where people believe in silly things. It is not the place where people go to profit from the fact that people believe in silly things. Idiot America is not even those people who believe that Adam named the dinosaurs. Those people pay attention. They take notes. They take the time and the considerable mental effort to construct a worldview that is round and complete.

The rise of Idiot America is essentially a war on expertise. It's not so much antimodernism or the distrust of intellectual elites that Richard Hofstadter deftly teased out of the national DNA forty years ago. Both of those things are part of it. However, the rise of Idiot America today represents--for profit mainly, but also, and more cynically, for political advantage and in the pursuit of power--the breakdown of a consensus that the pursuit of knowledge is a good. It also represents the ascendancy of the notion that the people whom we should trust the least are the people who best know what they're talking about. In the new media age, everybody is a historian, or a preacher, or a scientist, or a sage. And if everyone is an expert, then nobody is, and the worst thing you can be in a society where everybody is an expert is, well, an actual expert.

In the place of expertise, we have elevated the Gut, and the Gut is a moron, as anyone who has ever tossed a golf club, punched a wall, or kicked an errant lawn mower knows. We occasionally dress up the Gut by calling it "common sense." The president's former advisor on medical ethics regularly refers to the "yuck factor." The Gut is common. It is democratic. It is the roiling repository of dark and ancient fears. Worst of all, the Gut is faith-based.

It's a dishonest phrase for a dishonest time, "faith-based," a cheap huckster's phony term of art. It sounds like an additive, an artificial flavoring to make crude biases taste of bread and wine. It's a word for people without the courage to say they are religious, and it is beloved not only by politicians too cowardly to debate something as substantial as faith but also by Idiot America, which is too lazy to do it.

After all, faith is about the heart and soul and about transcendence. Anything calling itself faith-based is admitting that it is secular and profane. In the way that it relies on the Gut to determine its science, its politics, and even the way it sends its people to war, Idiot America is not a country of faith; it's a faith-based country, fashioning itself in the world, which is not the place where faith is best fashioned.

Hofstadter saw this one coming. "Intellect is pitted against feeling," he wrote, "on the ground that it is somehow inconsistent with warm emotion. It is pitted against character, because it is widely believed that intellect stands for mere cleverness, which transmutes easily into the sly or the diabolical."

The Gut is the basis for the Great Premises of Idiot America. We hold these truths to be self-evident:
1) Any theory is valid if it sells books, soaks up ratings, or otherwise moves units.
2) Anything can be true if somebody says it on television.
3) Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it.

How does it work? This is how it works. On August 21, a newspaper account of the "intelligent design" movement contained this remarkable sentence: "They have mounted a politically savvy challenge to evolution as the bedrock of modern biology, propelling a fringe academic movement onto the front pages and putting Darwin's defenders firmly on the defensive."

A "politically savvy challenge to evolution" is as self-evidently ridiculous as an agriculturally savvy challenge to euclidean geometry would be. It makes as much sense as conducting a Gallup poll on gravity or running someone for president on the Alchemy Party ticket. It doesn't matter what percentage of people believe they ought to be able to flap their arms and fly, none of them can. It doesn't matter how many votes your candidate got, he's not going to turn lead into gold. The sentence is so arrantly foolish that the only real news in it is where it appeared.

On the front page.

Of The New York Times.

Within three days, there was a panel on the subject on Larry King Live, in which Larry asked the following question:

"All right, hold on. Dr. Forrest, your concept of how can you out-and-out turn down creationism, since if evolution is true, why are there still monkeys?"

And why do so many of them host television programs, Larry?

This is how Idiot America engages the great issues of the day. It decides, en masse, with a thousand keystrokes and clicks of the remote control, that because there are two sides to every question, they both must be right, or at least not wrong. And the poor biologist's words carry no more weight than the thunderations of some turkey-neck preacher out of the Church of Christ's Own Parking Facility in DeLand, Florida. Less weight, in fact, because our scientist is an "expert" and, therefore, an "elitist." Nobody buys his books. Nobody puts him on cable. He's brilliant, surely, but his Gut's the same as ours. He just ignores it, poor fool.

This is a great country, in no small part because it is the best country ever devised in which to be a public crank. Never has a nation so dedicated itself to the proposition that not only should its people hold nutty ideas but they should cultivate them, treasure them, shine them up, and put them right there on the mantelpiece. This is still the best country ever in which to peddle complete public lunacy. The right to do so is there in our founding documents.

After all, the Founders were men of the Enlightenment, fashioning a country out of new ideas--or out of old ones that they excavated from centuries of religious internment. Historian Charles Freeman points out that in Europe, "Christian thought . . . often gave irrationality the status of a universal 'truth' to the exclusion of those truths to be found through reason. So the uneducated was preferred to the educated, and the miracle to the operation of natural laws."

In America, the Founders were trying to get away from all that, to raise a nation of educated people. In pledging their faith to intellectual experimentation, however, the Founders set freedom free. They devised the best country ever in which to be completely around the bend. It's just that making a respectable living out of it used to be harder work.

They call it the Infinite Corridor, which is the kind of joke you tell when your day job is to throw science as far ahead as you can and hope that the rest of us can move fast enough to catch up. It is a series of connecting hallways that run north through the campus of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The hallways are lined with cramped offices, their doors mottled thickly with old tape and yellowing handbills. The Infinite Corridor is not a straight line. It has branches and tributaries. It has backwaters and eddies. You can get lost there.

One of the offices belongs to Professor Kip Hodges, a young and energetic North Carolinian who studies how mountain ranges develop and grow. Suffice it to say that Hodges's data do not correspond to the six-thousand-year-old earth of the creationists, whereupon dinosaurs and naked folks doth gambol together.

Hodges is recently returned from Nepal, where he rescued his research from encroaching Maoist rebels, who were not interested in the least in how the Himalayas became the Himalayas. They were interested in land, in guns, in power, and in other things of the Gut. Moreover, part of Hodges's duties at MIT has been to mentor incoming freshmen about making careers in science for themselves.

"Scientists are always portrayed in the literature as being above the fray intellectually," Hodges says. "I guess to a certain extent that's our fault, because scientists don't do a good enough job communicating with people who are nonscientists--that it's not a matter of brainiacs doing one thing and nonbrainiacs doing another."

Americans of a certain age grew up with science the way an earlier generation grew up with baseball and even earlier ones grew up with politics and religion. America cured diseases. It put men on the moon. It thought its way ahead in the cold war and stayed there.

"My earliest memory," Hodges recalls, "is watching John Glenn go up. It was a time that, if you were involved in science or engineering--particularly science, at that time--people greatly respected you if you said you were going into those fields. And nowadays, it's like there's no value placed by society on a lot of the observations that are made by people in science.

"It's more than a general dumbing down of America--the lack of self-motivated thinking: clear, creative thinking. It's like you're happy for other people to think for you. If you should be worried about, say, global warming, well, somebody in Washington will tell me whether or not I should be worried about global warming. So it's like this abdication of intellectual responsibility--that America now is getting to the point that more and more people would just love to let somebody else think for them."

The country was founded by people who were fundamentally curious; Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, to name only the most obvious examples, were inveterate tinkerers. (Before dispatching Lewis and Clark into the Louisiana Territory, Jefferson insisted that the pair categorize as many new plant and animal species as they found. Considering they were also mapping everything from Missouri to Oregon, this must have been a considerable pain in the canoe.) Further, they assumed that their posterity would feel much the same as they did; in 1815, appealing to Congress to fund the building of a national university, James Madison called for the development of "a nursery of enlightened preceptors."

It is a long way from that to the moment on February 18, 2004, when sixty-two scientists, including a clutch of Nobel laureates, released a report accusing the incumbent administration of manipulating science for political ends. It is a long way from Jefferson's observatory and Franklin's kite to George W. Bush, in an interview in 2005, suggesting that intelligent design be taught alongside the theory of evolution in the nation's science classes. "Both sides ought to be properly taught," said the president, "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The "debate," of course, is nothing of the sort, because two sides are required for a debate. Nevertheless, the very notion of it is a measure of how scientific discourse, and the way the country educates itself, has slipped through lassitude and inattention across the border into Idiot America--where fact is merely that which enough people believe, and truth is measured only by how fervently they believe it.

If we have abdicated our birthright to scientific progress, we have done so by moving the debate into the realm of political and cultural argument, where we all feel more confident, because it is there that the Gut rules. Held to this standard, any scientific theory is rendered mere opinion. Scientific fact is no more immutable than a polling sample. This is how there's a "debate" over the very existence of global warming, even though the preponderance of fact among those who actually have studied the phenomenon renders the "debate" quite silly. The debate is about making people feel better about driving SUVs. The debate is less about climatology than it is about guiltlessly topping off your tank and voting in tax incentives for oil companies.

The rest of the world looks on in cockeyed wonder. The America of Franklin and Edison, of Fulton and Ford, of the Manhattan project and the Apollo program, the America of which Einstein wanted to be a part, seems to be enveloping itself in a curious fog behind which it's tying itself in knots over evolution, for pity's sake, and over the relative humanity of blastocysts versus the victims of Parkinson's disease.

"Even in the developing world, where I spend lots of time doing my work," Hodges says, "if you tell them that you're from MIT and you tell them that you do science, it's a big deal. If I go to India and tell them I'm from MIT, it's a big deal. In Thailand, it's a big deal. If I go to Iowa, they could give a rat's ass. And that's a weird thing, that we're moving in that direction as a nation."

Hence, Bush was not talking about science--not in any real sense, anyway. Intelligent design is a theological construct, a faith-based attempt to gussy up creationism in a lab coat. Its fundamental tenets cannot be experimentally verified--or, most important, falsified. That it enjoys a certain public cachet is irrelevant; a higher percentage of Americans believes that a government conspiracy killed John F. Kennedy than believes in intelligent design, but there is no great effort abroad in the land to include that conspiracy theory in sixth-grade history texts. Bush wasn't talking about science. He was talking about the political utility of putting saddles on the dinosaurs and breaking Ganesh's theological monopoly over the elephant paddock.

"The reason the creationists have been so effective is that they have put a premium on communication skills," explains Hodges. "It matters to them that they can talk to the guy in the bar, and it's important to them, and they are hugely effective at it."

It is the ultimate standard of Idiot America. How does it play to Joe Six-Pack in the bar? At the end of August 2004, the Zogby people discovered that 57 percent of undecided voters would rather have a beer with George Bush than with John Kerry. Now, how many people with whom you've spent time drinking beer would you trust with the nuclear launch codes? Not only is this not a question for a nation of serious citizens, it's not even a question for a nation of serious drunkards.

If even scientific discussion is going to be dragged into politics, then the discussion there at least ought to exist on a fairly sophisticated level. Again, the Founders thought it should. They considered self-government a science that required an informed and educated and enlightened populace to make all the delicate mechanisms run. Instead, today we have the Kabuki politics and marionette debates best exemplified by cable television. Instead, the discussion of everything ends up in the bar.

(It wasn't always this way. Theodore Roosevelt is reckoned to be the manliest of our manly-man presidents. He also was a lifelong science dweeb, cataloging songbirds, of all things. Of course, he shot them first, so maybe that makes all the difference.)

It is, of course, television that has allowed Idiot America to run riot within the modern politics and all forms of public discourse. It is not that there is less information on television than there once was. (That there is less news is another question entirely.) In fact, there is so much information that fact is now defined as something that so many people believe that television notices it, and truth is measured by how fervently they believe it.

"You don't need to be credible on television," explains Keith Olbermann, the erudite host of his own show on MSNBC. "You don't need to be authoritative. You don't need to be informed. You don't need to be honest. All these things that we used to associate with what we do are no longer factors.

"There is an entire network [the Fox News Channel] that bills itself as news that is devoted to reinforcing people's fears and saying to them, 'This is what you should be scared of, and here's whose fault it is,' " Olbermann says. "And that's what they get--two or three million frustrated paranoids who sit in front of the TV and go, 'Damn right, it's those liberals' fault.' Or, 'It's those--what's the word for it?--college graduates' fault.' "

The reply, of course, is that Fox regularly buries Olbermann and the rest of the MSNBC lineup in breaking off a segment of a smidgen of a piece of the television audience. Truth is what moves the needle. Fact is what sells.

Idiot America is a bad place for crazy notions. Its indolent tolerance of them causes the classic American crank to drift slowly and dangerously into the mainstream, wherein the crank loses all of his charm and the country loses another piece of its mind. The best thing about American crackpots used to be that they would stand proudly aloof from a country that, by their peculiar lights, had gone mad. Not today. Today, they all have book deals, TV shows, and cases pending in federal court.

Once, it was very hard to get into the public square and very easy to fall out of it. One ill-timed word, even a whiff of public scandal, and all the hard work you did in the grange hall on all those winter nights was for nothing. No longer. You can be Bill Bennett, gambling with both fists, but if your books still sell, you can continue to scold the nation about its sins. You can be Bill O'Reilly, calling up subordinates to proposition them both luridly and comically--loofahs? falafels?--and if more people tune in to watch you than tune in to watch some other blowhard, you can keep your job lecturing America about the dangers of its secular culture. Just don't be boring. And keep the ratings up. Idiot America wants to be entertained.

Because scientific expertise was dragged into political discussion, and because political discussion is hopelessly corrupt, the distrust of scientific expertise is now as general as the dis-trust of politicians is. Everyone is an expert, so nobody is. For example, Sean Hannity's knowledge of, say, stem-cell research is measured precisely by his ratings book. His views on the subject are more well known than those of the people doing the actual research.

The credibility of Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania on the subject of the cultural anthropology of the American family ought to be, well, minimal. He spent the summer promoting a book in which he propounded theories on the subject that were progressively loopier. "For some parents," he writes, "the purported need to provide things for their children simply provides a convenient rationalization for pursuing a gratifying career outside the home." He goes on later to compare a woman's right to choose an abortion unfavorably with the institution of slavery. Nevertheless, he's welcome in the mainstream, at least until either he's defeated for reelection or his book doesn't sell.

"Somewhere along the line, we stopped rewarding intelligence with success and stopped equating intelligence with success," Olbermann says. We're all in the bar now, where everybody's an expert, where the Gut makes everyone so very sure. All opinions are of equal worth. No voice is more authoritative than any others; some are just louder. Of course, the problem in the bar is that sooner or later, for reasons that nobody will remember in the clear light of the next morning, some noisy asshole picks a fight. And it becomes clear that the rise of Idiot America has consequences.

On the morning of September 11, 2001, nobody in the American government knew more than Richard Clarke did on the subject of a shadowy terrorist network called Al Qaeda. He had watched it grow. He had watched it strike--in New York and in Africa and in the harbor in Yemen. That morning, in the Situation Room in the White House, Clarke watched the buildings burn and fall, and he recognized the organization's signature as well as he'd recognize his own. Instead, in the ensuing days a lot of people around him--people who didn't know enough about Al Qaeda to throw to a cat--wanted to talk about Iraq. What they believed trumped what Clarke knew, over and over again. He left the government.

"In the 1970s and 1980s, when the key issue became arms control, the traditional diplomats couldn't do the negotiating because that negotiating involved science and engineering," Clarke recalls. "Interagency decision papers were models of analysis, where assumptions were laid out and tested.

"That's the world I grew up in. [The approach] still applied to issues, even terrorism. Then these people come in, and they already have the answers, how to spin it, how to get the rest of the world on board. I thought, Wait a minute. That isn't analysis. It's the important issues where we really need analysis.

"In the area of terrorism, there is a huge potential for emotional reaction. The one thing I told my team [on September 11]--they were mad and they were crying, the whole range of emotions--was that we didn't have time for emotion that day."

Nothing that the administration of George W. Bush has done has been inconsistent with the forces that twice elected it. The subtle, humming engine of its success--against John Kerry, surely, but most vividly against poor, cerebral Al Gore--was a celebration of instinct over intellect, a triumph of the Gut. No campaigns in history employed the saloon question with such devastating success or saw so clearly the path through the deliberate inexpertise of the national debate. No politician in recent times has played to the Gut so deftly.

So it ought not shock anyone when the government suddenly found itself at odds with empirical science. It ought not shock anyone in the manner in which it would go to war. Remember the beginning, when it was purely the Gut--a bone-deep call for righteous revenge for which Afghanistan was not sufficient response. In Iraq, there would be towering stacks of chemical bombs, a limitless smorgasbord of deadly bacteria, vast lagoons of exotic poisons. There would be candy and flowers greeting our troops. The war would take six months, a year, tops. Mission Accomplished. Major combat operations are over.

"Part of the problem was that people didn't want the analytic process because they'd be shown up," Richard Clarke says. "Their assumptions would be counterfactual. One of the real areas of expertise, for example, was failed-state reconstruction. How to go into failed states and maintain security and get the economy going and defang ethnic hatred. They threw it all out.

"They ignored the experts on the Middle East. They ignored the experts who said it was the wrong target. So you ignore the experts and you go in anyway, and then you ignore all the experts on how to handle the postconflict."

One of those experts was David Phillips, a senior advisor on what was called the Future of Iraq program for the State Department. Phillips was ignored. His program was ignored. Earlier, Phillips had helped reconstruct the Balkans after the region spent a decade tearing itself apart with genocidal lunacy. Phillips knew what he knew. He just didn't believe what they believed.

"You can just as easily have a faith-based, or ideologically driven, policy," he says today. "You start with the presumption that you already know the conclusion prior to asking the question. When information surfaces that contradicts your firmly entrenched views, you dismantle the institution that brought you the information."

There was going to be candy and flowers, remember? The war was going to pay for itself. Believe.

"We went in blindfolded, and we believed our own propaganda," Phillips says. "We were going to get out in ninety days, spend $1.9 billion in the short term, and Iraqi oil would pay for the rest. Now we're deep in the hole, and people are asking questions about how we got there.

"It's delusional, allowing delusion to be the basis of policy making. Once you've told the big lie, you have to substantiate it with a sequence of lies that's repeated. You can't fix a policy if you don't admit it's broken."

Two thousand American lives later, remember the beginning. One commentator quite plainly made the case that every few years or so, the United States should "throw a small nation up against the wall" to prove that it means business. And Idiot America, which is all of us, cheered.

Goddamn right. Gimme another. And see what the superpowers in the back room will have.

August 19, 2005, was a beautiful day in Idiot America.

In Washington, William Frist, a Harvard-trained physician and the majority leader of the United States Senate, endorsed the teaching of intelligent design in the country's public schools. "I think today a pluralistic society," Frist explained, "should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith."

That faith is not fact, nor should it be, and that faith is not science, nor should it be, seems to have eluded Doctor Senator Frist. It doesn't matter. He was talking to the people who believe that faith is both those things, because Bill Frist wants to be president of the United States, and because he believes those people will vote for him specifically because he talks this rot, and Idiot America will take it as an actor merely reciting his lines and let it go at that. Nonsense is a no-lose proposition.

On the same day, across town, a top aide to former secretary of state Colin Powell told CNN that Powell's pivotal presentation to the United Nations in which he described Iraq's vast array of deadly weapons was a farrago of stovepiped intelligence, wishful thinking, and utter bullshit.

"It was the lowest point in my life," the aide said.

That it has proven to be an even lower point for almost two thousand American families, and God alone knows how many Iraqis, seems to have eluded this fellow. It doesn't matter. Neither Frist with his pandering nor this apparatchik with the tender conscience--nor Colin Powell, for all that--will pay a substantial price for any of it because the two stories lasted one day, and, after all, it was a beautiful day in Idiot America.

Idiot America is a collaborative effort, the result of millions of decisions made and not made. It's the development of a collective Gut at the expense of a collective mind. It's what results when politicians make ridiculous statements and not merely do we abandon the right to punish them for it at the polls, but we also become too timid to punish them with ridicule on a daily basis, because the polls say they're popular anyway. It's what results when leaders are not held to account for mistakes that end up killing people.

And that's why August became a seminal month in Idiot America.

In its final week, a great American city drowned and then turned irrevocably into a Hieronymus Bosch painting in real time and on television, and with complete impunity, the president of the United States wandered the landscape and talked like a blithering nitwit.

First, he compared the violence surrounding the writing of an impromptu theocratic constitution in Baghdad to the events surrounding the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. Undaunted, he later compared the war he'd launched in Iraq to World War II. And then he compared himself to Franklin Roosevelt. One more public appearance and we might have learned that Custer was killed by Hezbollah.

Finally, we saw the apotheosis of the end of expertise, when New Orleans was virtually obliterated as a functional habitat for human beings, and the country discovered that the primary responsibility for dealing with the calamity lay with a man who'd been dismissed as an incompetent from his previous job as the director of a luxury-show-horse organization.

And the president went on television and said that nobody could have anticipated the collapse of the unfortunate city's levees. In God's sweet name, engineers anticipated it. Politicians anticipated it. The poor bastards in the Ninth Ward certainly anticipated it. Hell, four generations of folksingers anticipated it.

And the people who hated him went crazy and the people who loved him defended him. But where were the people who heard this incredible, staggeringly stupid bafflegab, uttered with conscious forethought, and realized that whatever they thought of the man, the president had gotten behind a series of podiums and done everything but drop his drawers and dance the hootchie-koo? They were out there, lost in Idiot America, where it was still a beautiful day.

Idiot America took it as a bad actor merely bungling his lines. Nonsense is a no-lose proposition. For Idiot America is a place where people choose to live. It is a place that is built consciously and deliberately, one choice at a time, made or (most often) unmade. A place where we're all like that statue of Adam now, reclining in a peaceful garden of our own creation, brainless and dickless, and falling down on the job of naming the monsters for what they are, dozing away in an Eden that, every day, looks less and less like paradise.

http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0207GREETINGS


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #278 - Aug 16th, 2007 at 9:13am
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Yet another liberal dumbass.  Our country is infected with them.  It's a plague.  A disease.  A virus that infects America's rotting corpse and robs whatever good is left in her.

That article was an incoherent, unfocused mess.  I don't understand how even the most hardcore liberal could wander from bashing Christians for Creationism to blaming Katrina on Bush in a single article.


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(...pure elitist crap.  Nothing more.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #279 - Aug 16th, 2007 at 2:52pm
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'We have broken speed of light'

By Nic Fleming, Science Correspondent
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 16/08/2007

A pair of German physicists claim to have broken the speed of light - an achievement that would undermine our entire understanding of space and time.

According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it would require an infinite amount of energy to propel an object at more than 186,000 miles per second.

However, Dr Gunter Nimtz and Dr Alfons Stahlhofen, of the University of Koblenz, say they may have breached a key tenet of that theory.
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The pair say they have conducted an experiment in which microwave photons - energetic packets of light - travelled "instantaneously" between a pair of prisms that had been moved up to 3ft apart.

Being able to travel faster than the speed of light would lead to a wide variety of bizarre consequences.

For instance, an astronaut moving faster than it would theoretically arrive at a destination before leaving.

The scientists were investigating a phenomenon called quantum tunnelling, which allows sub-atomic particles to break apparently unbreakable laws.

Dr Nimtz told New Scientist magazine: "For the time being, this is the only violation of special relativity that I know of."


This is some of the best news I've heard out of science ever since...well..Einstein.  If this is proven true we might have to find another Einstein to devise a "warp" theory!!!  Evolutionists have also tauted the C constant in favor of an old universe...it'll be interesting to see if we can devise a way to see if the speed of light is constant throughout the universe.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #280 - Aug 16th, 2007 at 3:17pm
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http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/galex/20070815/

cool star

and the best reply to this link:

"Holy crap, isn't this how Sephiroth's SuperNova attack starts?"
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #281 - Aug 16th, 2007 at 4:14pm
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travelled "instantaneously" between a pair of prisms that had been moved up to 3ft apart.


yup, that's the definition of flaky.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #282 - Aug 17th, 2007 at 12:54pm
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Not to be outdone by Fox News...I too want to be fair and balanced *tee hee* so here's an article that's critical on the faster than the speed of light article I posted recently.  I don't think the scientists have released a paper yet...but if you were to discover something like that...I wouldn't wait to write a paper to announce that stuff!

Quote:
Latest "faster than the speed of light" claims wrong (again)

By Chris Lee | Published: August 16, 2007 - 07:38PM CT

A paper submitted to the physics arXiv has been picked up by a number of major news outlets (e.g., the Daily Mail) because the paper suggests that its authors have measured something traveling faster than the speed of light. Unfortunately, the claim is worse than weak; it is silly. I'll talk about why that is after briefly discussing their research.

The paper in question has no data at all so; although it asserts that it has measured superluminal velocities, it offers nothing to back that up. It also has very little in the way of experimental detail, so we can't determine with certainty what they are measuring, making it very difficult to evaluate their claims. We'll take as close a look as we can, given these limitations.

The researchers make use of the property called total internal reflection (brief discussion). When light is above a certain angle of incidence on an interface between two materials—say, at the face of a prism—it can be totally reflected, provided it is arriving at this interface from the higher refractive index material. However, near the boundary, something called an evanescent wave forms that does not propagate like normal light (technically it does not propagate at all) and quickly decays away to nothing. If you take a second prism and place it very close to the interface where total internal reflection occurred, then some light from this evanescent wave will leak across the interface and exit the second prism. The prisms have to be no further than the wavelength of light involved for this to work.

Now the interesting questions are: where did the energy in this light come from? How fast did it travel across the boundary? The first question is interesting because the evanescent field has no energy in it. This is because the electric and magnetic fields that make up the field are phased in such a way that the product is always zero. The second question is interesting because the speed of light is not defined in a way that is intuitive to non-physicists. Suffice it to say that, for the evanescent wave, the speed of light is zero, and therefore any measurable speed is faster than the speed of light.

So, how are these authors measuring an excessive speed of light?  In practical terms, most experiments measure light in terms of what is called the group velocity, which is how fast a pulse propagates along an underlying carrier frequency. This can, in some circumstances, lead to the pulses traveling faster than the speed of light in the medium they're in, but not faster than light in vacuum. Although the setup in the new paper is not entirely clear, they were measuring the arrival time of pulses, which means we're talking about group velocity rather than the actual speed of light.

Another problem that occurs in these experiments comes from determining when the pulse actually arrived. If you analyze a pulse of light, you find that it is made up of a huge number of frequencies that, as you move away from the fundamental frequency, get lower and lower in amplitude. Once you look at the experimental set up in detail, you find that it is triggering on the pre-pulse noise generated by these high frequency components.

Separate from the whole speed of light issue, the answer to the energy question in this experimental setup is interesting. Once the two prisms are close to each other, the evanescent wave is partially reflected from the second prism back to the first prism. When this happens, the total electric field and total magnetic field are no longer such that their product is always zero—there is energy in the field. Furthermore, if you analyze the components of the fields that contain the energy, you find that they do have a non-zero speed of light and it is—you guessed it—the same c that applies everywhere else in the universe.

So although this makes for an interesting physics lecture—or at least I thought it was interesting—it is not new physics and not a breakdown of special relativity.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #283 - Aug 20th, 2007 at 9:48am
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Scientists hail ‘frozen smoke’ as miracle material that will change world

Abul Taher

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2284349.ece

A MIRACLE material for the 21st century could protect your home against bomb blasts, mop up oil spillages and even help man to fly to Mars.

Aerogel, one of the world’s lightest solids, can withstand a direct blast of 1kg of dynamite and protect against heat from a blowtorch at more than 1,300C.

Scientists are working to discover new applications for the substance, ranging from the next generation of tennis rackets to super-insulated space suits for a manned mission to Mars.

It is expected to rank alongside wonder products from previous generations such as Bakelite in the 1930s, carbon fibre in the 1980s and silicone in the 1990s. Mercouri Kanatzidis, a chemistry professor at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, said: “It is an amazing material. It has the lowest density of any product known to man, yet at the same time it can do so much. I can see aerogel being used for everything from filtering polluted water to insulating against extreme temperatures and even for jewellery.”

Aerogel is nicknamed “frozen smoke” and is made by extracting water from a silica gel, then replacing it with gas such as carbon dioxide. The result is a substance that is capable of insulating against extreme temperatures and of absorbing pollutants such as crude oil.

It was invented by an American chemist for a bet in 1931, but early versions were so brittle and costly that it was largely consigned to laboratories. It was not until a decade ago that Nasa started taking an interest in the substance and putting it to a more practical use.

In 1999 the space agency fitted its Stardust space probe with a mitt packed full of aerogel to catch the dust from a comet’s tail. It returned with a rich collection of samples last year.

In 2002 Aspen Aerogel, a company created by Nasa, produced a stronger and more flexible version of the gel. It is now being used to develop an insulated lining in space suits for the first manned mission to Mars, scheduled for 2018.

Mark Krajewski, a senior scientist at the company, believes that an 18mm layer of aerogel will be sufficient to protect astronauts from temperatures as low as -130C. “It is the greatest insulator we’ve ever seen,” he said.

Aerogel is also being tested for future bombproof housing and armour for military vehicles. In the laboratory, a metal plate coated in 6mm of aerogel was left almost unscathed by a direct dynamite blast.

It also has green credentials. Aerogel is described by scientists as the “ultimate sponge”, with millions of tiny pores on its surface making it ideal for absorbing pollutants in water.

Kanatzidis has created a new version of aerogel designed to mop up lead and mercury from water. Other versions are designed to absorb oil spills.

He is optimistic that it could be used to deal with environmental catastrophes such as the Sea Empress spillage in 1996, when 72,000 tons of crude oil were released off the coast of Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire.

Aerogel is also being used for everyday applications. Dunlop, the sports equipment company, has developed a range of squash and tennis rackets strengthened with aerogel, which are said to deliver more power.

Earlier this year Bob Stoker, 66, from Nottingham, became the first Briton to have his property insulated with aerogel. “The heating has improved significantly. I turned the thermostat down five degrees. It’s been a remarkable transformation,” he said.

Mountain climbers are also converts. Last year Anne Parmenter, a British mountaineer, climbed Everest using boots that had aerogel insoles, as well as sleeping bags padded with the material. She said at the time: “The only problem I had was that my feet were too hot, which is a great problem to have as a mountaineer.”

However, it has failed to convince the fashion world. Hugo Boss created a line of winter jackets out of the material but had to withdraw them after complaints that they were too hot.

Although aerogel is classed as a solid, 99% of the substance is made up of gas, which gives it a cloudy appearance.

Scientists say that because it has so many millions of pores and ridges, if one cubic centimetre of aerogel were unravelled it would fill an area the size of a football field.

Its nano-sized pores can not only collect pollutants like a sponge but they also act as air pockets.

Researchers believe that some versions of aerogel which are made from platinum can be used to speed up the production of hydrogen. As a result, aerogel can be used to make hydrogen-based fuels.



I want some of this stuff!

-b0b
(...would make some kickin' armor with it.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #284 - Aug 21st, 2007 at 5:40pm
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=bldN-lbyqsE

Dawkins does what he attempts to do charge creationists with.  Creationist say that everything is so perfect that it can't happen by accident.  Dawkins, and evolutionists, say if I were god I wouldn't do it like this!  So that means there is no God.

Good try there Dawkins...that's why you aren't God.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #285 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 12:23pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_sc/dna_differences

Quote:
People are less alike than scientists had thought when it comes to the billions of building blocks that make up each individual's DNA, according to a new analysis.

"Instead of 99.9 percent identical, maybe we're only 99 percent (alike)," said J. Craig Venter, an author of the study — and the person whose DNA was analyzed for it.

Several previous studies have argued for lowering the 99.9 percent estimate. Venter says this new analysis "proves the point."


Quote:
The 99 percent figure is close to what scientists have often estimated for the similarity between humans and chimps. But the human-chimp similarity drops to more like 95 percent when the more recently discovered kinds of DNA variation are considered, Venter said.


Oh crap! This new study proves that since we are less alike, we must be evolving!

Or..... we are several hundred generations from Adam, and losing genetic material with each reproduction!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #286 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 1:28pm
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I do believe that since we are finding these discrepancies it shows 2 things:

1) We are loosing genetic material.  This means that we are not Evolving into something bigger and better but rather DE-Evolving.  Critics always point to us living longer today than previously.  However if you look at the ages people lived before the Dark Ages, they are living the same lengths as we are.  We have better nutrition and preventative health care that helps a bit more but taken into account all of human history, that which everyone can agree on, we live about the same.

2) That when scientists site that apes are 98% the same as us they are using percentages to fib to us.  If I am 1% different from you does that mean I am better and more evolved than you?  Probably not.  So 2% of me from a money means I can reproduce with that monkey.  I mean shoot the difference between a female human and a female ape to me is only 1%.  However, we all know that wouldn't be possible.  Scientists see a common pattern and draw faulty conclusions with saying "apes are less evolved and we stemmed from a common ancestor.  However what they fail to tell you is that the 2% difference encompasses 3 million nucleotides.  And a change of just 2 of those nucleotides would mean death for any organism.  So if that is true...why is evolution still thought of as good science?

It's because, just as with global warming, science has  now become democratized.  What does Pluto, global warming, and evolution all have in common?  They are all voted upon by the scientific community.  Pluto was ousted by a majority vote.  Global Warming is more political than scientific (CO2 feeds plants...more food for plants means more air for us and other benefits).  And evolution is excepted and taught as truth because a majority of scientist except it.  No one goes back and retests that basic assumption, e.g., that all life evolves up, it's just excepted as fact and proof is sought after to be found to support it.  As a result, incorrect conclusions are drawn.  Also, attempting to submit any paper to peer review (again democratized science) being critical of evolutionary theory gets dismissed or thought of as just a few misplaced facts we haven't all worked out yet but will someday.

Which is truly the pseudo science here?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #287 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 2:00pm
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I thought scientists said we were more than 99% similar to apes?  Does that mean I'm now more similar to a monkey than certain other humans?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #288 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 2:24pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6749213.stm

Apparently, gene understanding is still changing dramatically.  If 97% of the human genome was just recently thought to be junk, but have now have been seen to have complex functions and relationships, then I am guessing those simplified evolutionary comparisons might be based on hasty conclusions from an immature field.

here is another article on the same subject with some evolutionary journalism mixed in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/13/AR2007061302466....

Quote:
As with phone lines that carry many voices at once, that arrangement has prompted the evolution of complex switching, splicing and silencing mechanisms -- mostly located between genes -- to sort out the interwoven messages.


yes.. our genome has evolved complex mechanisms the same way the phone lines evolved.. hehe
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #289 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 2:36pm
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I am NOT a retarded retarted fish-frog baby!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #290 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 4:07pm
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No but your mom is

/drops the mike
« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2007 at 6:24pm by X »  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #291 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 5:36pm
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Pat gots made raps y'all!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #292 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 6:08pm
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That was the worst string of misspelled posts I've ever seen.

-b0b
(...breaks the chain.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #293 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 6:26pm
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That WAS pretty bad...I apologize and I have corrected my horrible error.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #294 - Sep 4th, 2007 at 8:05pm
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Bahahaha, yes!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #295 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 9:05pm
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Distant space collision meant doom for dinosaurs

By Will Dunham Wed Sep 5, 3:36 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A collision 160 million years ago of two asteroids orbiting between Mars and Jupiter sent many big rock chunks hurtling toward Earth, including the one that zapped the dinosaurs, scientists said on Wednesday.

Their research offered an explanation for the cause of one of the most momentous events in the history of life on Earth -- a six-mile-wide (10-km-wide) meteorite striking Mexico's Yucatan peninsula 65 million years ago.

That catastrophe eliminated the dinosaurs, which had flourished for about 165 million years, and many other life forms, and paved the way for mammals to dominate the Earth and the eventual rise of humankind, many scientists believe.

The impact is thought to have triggered a worldwide environmental cataclysm, expelling vast quantities of rock and dust into the sky, unleashing giant tsunamis, sparking global wildfires and leaving Earth shrouded in darkness for years.

U.S. and Czech researchers used computer simulations to calculate that there was a 90 percent probability that the collision of two asteroids -- one about 105 miles wide and one about 40 miles wide -- was the event that precipitated the Earthly disaster.

The collision occurred in the asteroid belt, a collection of big and small rocks orbiting the sun about 100 million miles from Earth, the researchers report in this week's issue of the journal Nature.

The asteroid Baptistina and rubble associated with it are thought to be leftovers, the scientists said.

Some of the debris from the collision escaped the asteroid belt, tumbled toward the inner solar system and whacked Earth and our moon, along with probably Mars and Venus, said William Bottke of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, one of the researchers.

DEADLY COLLISION

The collision is believed to have doubled for a while the number of impacts occurring in this part of the solar system.

In fact, while the bombardment of this region of the solar system due to this shower of debris peaked about 100 million years ago, the scientists said the tail end of the shower continues to this day. Bottke said many existing near-Earth asteroids can be traced back to this collision.

"Imagine breaking up a big, big boulder on top of a hill and all the fragments rolling down the hill. And somewhere at the bottom is a village called Earth," Bottke said in a telephone interview.

The dinosaur-destroying meteorite, thought to have measured 6 miles across, plunged into Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula and blasted out the Chicxulub (pronounced CHIK-shu-loob) crater measuring about 110 miles wide. The researchers looked at evidence on the composition of this meteorite and found it consistent with the stony Baptistina.

The researchers estimated that there also was about a 70 percent probability that the prominent Tycho crater on the Moon, formed 108 million years ago and measuring about 55 miles

across, also was carved out by a remnant of the earlier asteroid collision.

Philippe Claeys of Vrije Universiteit Brussel in Belgium, who was not involved in the research, said by e-mail the findings were "clear evidence that the solar system is a violent environment and that collisions taking place in the asteroid belt can have major repercussions for the evolution of life on Earth."

Bottke emphasized that point. "Dinosaurs were around for a very long time. So the likelihood is they would still be around if that event had never taken place," Bottke said.

"Was humanity inevitable? Or is humanity just something that happened to arise because of this sequence of events that took place at just the right time. It's hard to say."


Ah...now it's TWO of them and now they're asteroids and not a meteorite.  And somehow just the dinos died and nothing else.  I also find it odd that while the crash occured 65 million years ago that we are still able to see the hole in the ground.  According to evolutionary theory we should have had a couple of thousand soil layers form, from somewhere...I don't know where, and so we shouldn't have been able to see the impact point.  The data they get just seems to be whatever they felt like putting into their computer model.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #296 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 9:22pm
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That article just goes to show how scientists like to pull things out of their collective butts.  I bet funding was running low this week...

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #297 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 11:01pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMHNnhAEDN4

Carl Sagan tells me that evolution is real and the steps we took to get to where we were...I like how he has to use animation...cause ya know...we'd have to wait 1 billion years for other things to evolve.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #298 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 4:15pm
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Pennsylvania Man Claims to Burn Salt Water
Tuesday, September 11, 2007


ERIE, Pa. —  An Erie, Pa., cancer researcher says he has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by a retired chemistry professor as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius says he happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he says he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University emeritus professor of chemistry, has held demonstrations at his State College, Pa., lab to confirm his own observations.

The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.

The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."

Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.

Roy says the scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge."

(Internet commentary upon Kanzius and Roy's assertion points out that creating fire from salt water is possible by first separating it into hydrogen, oxygen, sodium and chloride, then burning the sodium. However, such a process would consume much more energy than it produces.)


If there is even a shred of truth to this, we're in for a major technological revolution.

-b0b
(...would love to run his Grand Cherokee on salt water.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #299 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 5:12pm
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Then maybe we won't have to worry about the hippies saying our oceans are going to rise and the ice is going to melt.  Although solids are more dense than liquids and a melting of the ice would actually lower ocean levels...but who cares about science...we just want a global carbon tax!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #300 - Sep 12th, 2007 at 6:11pm
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http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/news_press_release,176495.shtml

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A new analysis of peer-reviewed literature reveals that more than 500 scientists have published evidence refuting at least one element of current man-made global warming scares. More than 300 of the scientists found evidence that 1) a natural moderate 1,500-year climate cycle has produced more than a dozen global warmings similar to ours since the last Ice Age and/or that 2) our Modern Warming is linked strongly to variations in the sun's irradiance. "This data and the list of scientists make a mockery of recent claims that a scientific consensus blames humans as the primary cause of global temperature increases since 1850," said Hudson Institute Senior Fellow Dennis Avery.

Other researchers found evidence that 3) sea levels are failing to rise importantly; 4) that our storms and droughts are becoming fewer and milder with this warming as they did during previous global warmings; 5) that human deaths will be reduced with warming because cold kills twice as many people as heat; and 6) that corals, trees, birds, mammals, and butterflies are adapting well to the routine reality of changing climate.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #301 - Sep 12th, 2007 at 6:25pm
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That is an awesome article, Briney.

That shows you that science has become a political tool.  If you submit a paper to these magazines and no one pays attention to your research that means your theories are wrong.  That is a very important aspect to consider when you hear evolutionists say that "not one peer submitted paper has ever been excepted".  Ya it's because anything that looks down on anything a majority of scientists agree to is wrong.

I could title my paper "The Hollow Earth Proof!" and in the paper I could show photos of a hollow earth that I have taken and video of me drilling down and finding inner-planetary beings and shaking hands with them.  Becuase of my title, I wouldn't even get considered to be published let alone anyone taking any of my data seriously.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #302 - Sep 12th, 2007 at 8:21pm
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It's all Photoshop and hacks!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #303 - Sep 13th, 2007 at 9:25am
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Global Warming killed my family...with a knife.


I declare war on global warming!
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #304 - Sep 20th, 2007 at 3:58pm
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Scientists say velociraptor had feathers

1 hour, 52 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Velociraptor, the terrifying predator made famous in the movie "Jurassic Park," appears to have had feathers in real life.
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A close study of a velociraptor forearm found in Mongolia shows the presence of quill knobs, bumps on the bone where the feathers anchor, researchers report in Friday's edition of the journal Science.

Dinosaurs are believed to be ancestors to modern birds. Evidence of feathered dinosaurs has been found in recent years, and now velociraptor can be added to that list.

"Finding quill knobs on velociraptor ... means that it definitely had feathers. This is something we'd long suspected, but no one had been able to prove," Alan Turner, lead author on the study and a graduate student of paleontology at the American Museum of Natural History and at Columbia University in New York, said in a statement.

The velociraptor the researchers studied was about three feet tall and weighed about 30 pounds. The size of these animals was exaggerated in the movie.

It had short forelimbs, compared to a modern bird, the researchers said, indicating it would not have been able to fly, even though it had feathers.

The feathers may have been useful for display, to shield nests, for temperature control or to help it maneuver while running, they said.


You know what else you could call those bumps?  Bumps.  Did you happen to find any feathers around the fossil or imprints of feathers?  No?  Weird...it's almost as if these animals show no proof for the evolution of feathers.  Also why would they first grow feathers and not some form a wing device like a Pteryidacal?  Hmmm.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #305 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 1:02am
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Good point.  What the heck is the value of feathers (in the traditional bird sense) if you can't fly?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #306 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 3:12pm
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We're loosing the evolution race people!!!

Quote:
Wine grape genes mapped

By JENNY BARCHFIELD, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 15 minutes ago

PARIS - Critics who praise the "complexity" of red Burgundy and Champagne are on target.
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A team of French and Italian researchers has mapped the genome of the pinot noir grape, used to make bubbly and many red wines from France's Burgundy region and around the world — and it has about 30,000 genes in its DNA. That's more than the human genome, which contains some 20,000 to 25,000 genes.

The team published its findings in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature, saying it identified the nearly half a billion chemical building blocks of the grape's DNA. Certain sequences of these building blocks form genes, like letters spelling words.

These discoveries won't make any immediate difference to wine drinkers worldwide. The pinot noir is the first grape — and first fruit — ever genetically mapped, and it would take years to apply this new knowledge to today's vines. But down the line, it could possibly lead to hardier grape varieties, more resistant to bugs and disease.

The team said its research had confirmed that the grape has an unusually high number of genes whose job it is to create flavor. More than 100 of its genes are dedicated to producing tannins and terpenes — compared to about 50 for other plants, said researcher Patrick Wincker.

He said the mapping of those flavor-producing genes could be a first step toward developing new flavors in wine by allowing scientists to breed different varieties to create precise new tastes.

But flavor also depends on external factors such as weather, microclimate, soil, size of the crop, age of the vines and the winemaker's art.

With so many flavor compounds potentially at play, these other factors become even more important, said Allen Meadows of burghound.com, a leading Burgundy critic who did not participate in the study.

Meadows said the research helps explain why wines made from pinot noir grapes have a huge variety of aromas and flavors.

"The research is genetic confirmation of what Burgundy and pinot noir lovers have known for centuries, which is that pinot noir is exquisitely sensitive to where and how it is grown," Meadows said. "Pinot-based wines produced in say Burgundy, while similar, are still distinctly different from those produced in California, Oregon or New Zealand."

In any case, Wincker said new flavors derived from genetic manipulation are years away and would likely be so subtle it would take a sophisticated palate to be able to appreciate them.

But he did not rule out the possibility that distinctive — and highly noticeable — new flavors might yet emerge.

"Anything can happen," Wincker said. "Biology doesn't always work out in the way you'd expect."

Identifying the genes grape plants use to defend themselves from mildew and insects would also allow researchers to breed new, more resistant varieties, Wincker said.

France's Agriculture Ministry, which helped fund the multimillion dollar project, hailed the team's findings. Agriculture Minister Michel Barnier said he hoped the findings would help in developing more environmentally friendly grape varieties.

Andre Barlier, assistant director of Viniflhor, a government-funded agency to support French wine, said it was laudable that the team's findings were made public so that researchers around the world can continue to work on them. But he said he doubted the genome map would change the way French vintners make wine.

"In France we are very conservative and we work according to traditional ways," Barlier said. "I don't think it will have an impact in the short term."

The pinot noir is also used to make wine in Oregon, California, New Zealand, France's Loire valley and other areas. But in Burgundy, the wine takes on the name of the vineyard or surrounding village — Chambolle-Musigny, for example. Champagne and other sparkling wines are traditionally made from chardonnay or pinot noir, or a mixture of the two along with smaller amounts of other grapes.

Scientists have already mapped the genome for rice and other crops, but this was the first time a fruit has been mapped, Wincker said. It took the team, based in France's national genetic-sequencing laboratory in the Paris suburb of Evry, nearly two years to complete.


Yes that is correct...grapes are now more evolved than us!  And I for one welcome our giant grape overlords!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #307 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 3:49pm
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God forbid they should ever be allowed to dry out a prune up.  We'd have to deal with the California Raisins all over again.



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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #308 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 4:26pm
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When my grandma died she left me her entire collection of CA Raisins...she had all of them...I am waiting to sell them when I become a cop and am hooked on crack and need a way to get money without robbing people....yet.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #309 - Oct 7th, 2007 at 7:16pm
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Quote:
WASHINGTON - March 24, 2005 - For more than a century, the study of dinosaurs has been limited to fossilized bones. Now, researchers have recovered 70 million-year-old soft tissue, including what may be blood vessels and cells, from a Tyrannosaurus rex.

If scientists can isolate proteins from the material, they may be able to learn new details of how dinosaurs lived, said lead researcher Mary Higby Schweitzer of North Carolina State University.

"We're doing a lot of stuff in the lab right now that looks promising," she said in a telephone interview. But, she said, she does not know yet if scientists will be able to isolate dinosaur DNA from the materials.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/

For the last bloody time... ITS NOT 70 MILLION YEARS OLD!

how the heck do you even believe tissue could survive that long!?! couple thousand years, tops.

  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #310 - Oct 8th, 2007 at 8:18am
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Personally, it looks to me like some dopey scientist dropped his fried chicken into a dino sample.

-b0b
(...mmm, fried chicken!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #311 - Oct 10th, 2007 at 1:50pm
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Texas set to open new canyon to public

By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 5, 10:21 PM ET

CANYON LAKE, Texas - Geologic time has a different meaning when it comes to Canyon Lake Gorge. You could say it dates to around the end of the Enron era.
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A torrent of water from an overflowing lake sliced open the earth in 2002, exposing rock formations, fossils and even dinosaur footprints in just three days. Since then, the canyon has been accessible only to researchers to protect it from vandals, but on Saturday it opens to its first public tour.

"It exposed these rocks so quickly and it dug so deeply, there wasn't a blade of grass or a layer of algae," said Bill Ward, a retired geology professor from the University of New Orleans who started cataloging the gorge almost immediately after the flood.

The mile-and-a-half-long gorge, up to 80 feet deep, was dug out from what had been a nondescript valley covered in mesquite and oak trees. It sits behind a spillway built as a safety valve for Canyon Lake, a popular recreation spot in the Texas Hill Country between San Antonio and Austin.

The reservoir was built in the 1960s to prevent flash flooding along the Guadalupe River and to assure the water supply for central Texas. The spillway had never been overrun until July 4, 2002, when 70,000 cubic feet of water gushed downhill toward the Guadalupe River for three days, scraping off vegetation and topsoil and leaving only limestone walls.

"Underneath us, it looks solid, but obviously it's not," said Tommie Streeter Rhoad of the Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, as she looked out over a cream-colored limestone crevasse.

The sudden exposure of such canyons is rare but not unprecedented. Flooding in Iowa in 1993 opened a limestone gorge behind a spillway at Corvalville Lake north of Iowa City, but that chasm, Devonian Fossil Gorge, is narrower and shallower than Canyon Lake Gorge.

Neither compares to the world's most famous canyon. It took water around 5 million to 6 million years to carve the Grand Canyon, which plunges 6,000 feet at its deepest point and stretches 15 miles at its widest.

The more modest Canyon Lake Gorge still displays a fault line and rock formations carved by water that seeped down and bubbled up for millions of years before the flooding.

Some of the canyon's rocks are punched with holes like Swiss cheese, and the fossils of worms and other ancient wildlife are everywhere. The rocks, typical of the limestone buried throughout central Texas, date back "111 million years, plus or minus a few hundred thousand years," Ward said.

Six three-toed dinosaur footprints offer evidence of a two-legged carnivore strolling along the water. The footprints were temporarily covered with sand to protect them as workers reinforced the spillway, but they'll be uncovered again eventually, Rhoad said.

The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing year-round on the first Saturday of the month.

Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents so dates can be added.

Visitors will not be allowed to hike the canyon on their own because the brittle limestone is still breaking from the canyon walls.

Construction on a rim trail to overlook the canyon begins this winter. Officials hope to eventually build lookout points and an educational center.


I don't believe this article /sarcasm!  I mean, I didn't SEE it happen therefore it MUST have been formed over millions of years.  It's exactly like the Grand Canyon and we KNOW that formed over millions of years too.  There's just NO OTHER WAY this canyon could have formed!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #312 - Oct 10th, 2007 at 3:20pm
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So one canyon formed in three days, and the other absolutely had to have taken 5-6 million years?  I can't believe they could post both claims in the same article!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #313 - Oct 17th, 2007 at 2:59pm
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Giant Dinosaur Skeleton Found in Argentina

Michael Astor in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Associated Press
October 16, 2007


The skeleton of what is believed to be a new dinosaur species—a 105-foot (32-meter) plant-eater that is among the largest dinosaurs ever found—has been uncovered in Argentina, scientists said Monday.

Scientists from Argentina and Brazil said the Patagonian dinosaur appears to represent a previously unknown species of Titanosaur because of the unique structure of its neck. They named it Futalognkosaurus dukei after the Mapuche Indian words for "giant" and "chief," and for Duke Energy Argentina, which helped fund the skeleton's excavation.

"This is one of the biggest in the world and one of the most complete of these giants that exist," said Jorge Calvo, director of the paleontology center at the National University of Comahue, Argentina. He was lead author of a study on the dinosaur published in the peer-reviewed Annals of the Brazilian Academy of Sciences.

Scientists said the giant herbivore walked Earth some 88 million years ago, during the late Cretaceous period.

Since the first bones were found on the banks of Lake Barreales in the Argentine province of Neuquén in 2000, paleontologists have dug up the dinosaur's neck, back region, hips, and the first vertebra of its tail.

"I'm pretty certain it's a new species," agreed Peter Mackovicky, associate curator for dinosaurs at Chicago's Field Museum, who was not involved with the discovery. "I've seen some of the remains of Futalognkosaurus, and it is truly gigantic."

Calvo said the neck alone must have been 56 feet (17 meters) long, and by studying the vertebrae, they figured the tail probably measured 49 feet (15 meters). The dinosaur reached more than 43 feet (13 meters) tall, and the excavated spinal column weighed about 9 tons when excavated. One neck vertebra alone measured more than 3 feet (a meter) high.

Jeff Wilson, an assistant professor of paleontology at the University of Michigan who was asked to review the finding, said he was impressed by the sheer amount of skeleton recovered.

"I should really try to underscore how incredible it is to have partial skeleton of something this size," Wilson said in telephone interview. "With these kind of bones you can't study them by moving them around on the table; you have to move around them yourself.

"It shows us the upper limit for dinosaur size," Wilson added. "There are some that are bigger, but they all top out around this size."

Patagonia also was home to the other two largest dinosaur skeletons found to date—Argentinosaurus, at around 115 feet (35 meters) long, and Puertasaurus reuili, 115 feet to 131 feet (40 meters)long. (See a photo gallery of Puertasaurus reuili.)

Comparison between the three herbivores, however, is difficult because scientists have only found few vertebrae of Puertasaurus, and while the skeleton of Futalognkosaurus is fairly complete, scientists have not uncovered any bones from its limbs.

North America's dinosaurs don't even compare in size, Mackovicky added in a phone interview. "Dinosaurs do get big here, but nothing near the proportions we see in South America."

The site where Futalognkosaurus was found has been a bonanza for paleontologists, yielding more than 1,000 specimens, including 240 fossil plants, 300 teeth, and the remains of several other dinosaurs.

"As far as I know, there is no other place in the world where there is such a large and diverse quantity of fossils in such small area. That is truly unique," said Alexander Kellner, a researcher with the Brazilian National Museum and co-author of the dinosaur's scientific description.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071016-argentina-dino.html








Well, it certainly is big.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #314 - Oct 18th, 2007 at 7:39pm
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Science group condemns Nobel laureate's 'racist' remarks

Thu Oct 18, 3:50 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A leading scientific organization Thursday condemned as "racist" and "vicious" remarks by a Nobel Prize-winning US scientist who reportedly said black people are less intelligent than whites.
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The Washington-based Federation of American Scientists (FAS) said it was "outraged" by the remarks attributed to James Watson that appeared in Britain's Sunday Times Magazine at the weekend.

"It is tragic that one of the icons of modern science has cast such dishonor on the profession," said FAS president Henry Kelly.

"Dr. Watson chose to use his unique stature to promote personal prejudices that are racist, vicious and unsupported by science," he added, saying it was "a sad and revolting way to end a remarkable career."

Watson won the Nobel prize for medicine in 1962 for his part in discovering the structure of DNA.

The 79-year-old chancellor of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York state is in Britain to promote his new book "Avoid Boring People: Lessons From A Life In Science."

Watson told the Sunday Times he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours -- whereas all the testing says not really."

The British Museum in London revoked a invitation to Watson in the firestorm that followed the remarks, saying through a spokesman that his comments had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate."


Whoa whoa whoa!  Are we going to start questioning our scientists now?!  These are the same people who told us we went from goo-to-you!  This guy, I believe, knows a little more about DNA and its data than these commoners!

Evolution teaches us that black people ARE inferior to us "higher civilized" whites.  So I don't see the problem.  I mean so what if you can point to the Bible and genetics and they tell you there is no difference.  As long as I don't have to mention God anywhere I'm a scientist.  I have to find this guy's video I saw online today.  He's also an advocate of killing 90% of the world's population.

In fact, he's one of the main champions of having every person's DNA in a data bank for the entire UK.

So have fun with that!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #315 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 11:40am
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If you're up for a fun read on Intelligent Design, here's an excellent paper on the subject by a PhD in Biology...

http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/NCBQ3_3HarrisCalvert.pdf

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #316 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 3:52am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDLj1Jmn0BU

I use to like Bill Nye The Science Guy...then I grew a brain.

Bill explains giraffe evolution.

However his science is bunk.  Did the giraffe just decide to have a longer neck?  Also in order to keep increasing in size the giraffe has to either mutate severely or have the information for it already in its genes.  Since their "early ancestors" didn't...that means giraffes today couldn't have naturally evolved like they are suppose to.

Secondly, doesn't this seem a bit too much effort to eat some leaves on top of a tree.  Why not just have longer legs?  Or grow really long arms?

Science is a wonderful thing.......this...this is not science...this isn't even pseudo-science...it's fantasy.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #317 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:33am
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Pure speculation and conjecture on his part.

If you think that's bad, you should see the "world history" attraction at Disney World.  Bill teamed up with Ellen DeGeneres (yeah, that Ellen) to explain evolution to all the little kiddies in a 3D theater.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #318 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 1:30pm
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    I am prepared to fight and die for my cause, . . . I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No, the truth is that I am just an animal, a human, an individual, a dissident . . . . It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!1

Sadly, these words were among the last things said before a self-proclaimed Social Darwinist took action in a shooting rampage in Jokela High School about 40 miles from Helsinki, Finland. At least eight people were reported killed by the student gunman named Pekka-Eric Auvinen, who had an online alias “Sturmgeist89,” in a tragic event that has shocked the country that sits in far northern region of Europe.


Good job there evolution.  It's fun that atheists have to point to thousand year old examples on how Christianity has caused death (although each example doesn't support that) and how all we have to do is point to the mass number of school shootings, esp. in Columbine (Eric wore a shirt that said "Natural Selection") and this guy as well as the mass number of dictators since the start of evolutionary teaching/worldview that has used it to the logical conclusion that there are some who are inferior and some who are better evolutionary speaking.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #319 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 1:37pm
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...and the hits just keep on coming.

-b0b
(...screw Darwin.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #320 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 1:25am
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http://www.livescience.com/environment/070228_beijing_anomoly.html

Quote:
Scientists scanning the deep interior of Earth have found evidence of a vast water reservoir beneath eastern Asia that is at least the volume of the Arctic Ocean.

The discovery marks the first time such a large body of water has found in the planet’s deep mantle.



I'll just go ahead and point out this verse:

Quote:
Genesis 7: 11

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


and then

Quote:
Genesis 8: 2

The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.


cool.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #321 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 1:47am
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Oh stop pointing to clear evidence of an "invisible man" in the sky to explain away what we KNOW is caused by random chance!

Facts shmacts you can prove anything with facts.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #322 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 8:27am
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I've been waiting for somebody to find evidence of the underground reservoirs.  It's about time!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #323 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 2:59pm
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Quote:
Burglars break into an apartment, hoping to pick up some expensive electronics or jewelry. But they're out again, empty-handed, within seconds, howling with pain and surprise. They've been driven back by waves of intolerable heat: Entering the apartment is like stepping into a furnace. It's the Active Denial System, or ADS, at work, the ultimate in home protection ... among other uses.

Also known as the "pain beam," ADS is a revolutionary non-lethal weapon that uses microwaves to cause burning pain without injury. The 95-GHz waves only penetrate a fraction of an inch, heating the outer surface of the target's skin. According to the Air Force, nobody can tolerate the beam for more than five seconds, and improvised protection such as wrapping yourself in wet towels or tin foil or goggles is useless.



On a side note Christmas is just around the corner...hint hint.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #324 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 3:14pm
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Ze Goggles! Zey do nothing!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #325 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 3:25pm
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On a side note the pain beam technology has not been adapted to fit sharks as of yet...
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #326 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 3:26pm
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The goggles!  They do nothing!!!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #327 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 3:32pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #328 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 5:30pm
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Boeing has installed a high-energy chemical laser aboard a C-130H aircraft, achieving a key milestone for the Advanced Tactical Laser (ATL) Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration program. Boeing completed the laser installation Dec. 4 at Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M. The laser, including its major subsystem, a 12,000-pound integrated laser module, was moved into place aboard the aircraft and aligned with the previously-installed beam control system, which will direct the laser beam to its target.
With the laser installed, Boeing is set to conduct a series of tests leading up to a demonstration in 2008 in which the program will fire the laser in-flight at mission-representative ground targets to demonstrate the military utility of high-energy lasers. The test team will fire the laser through a rotating turret that extends through the aircraft's belly.

"The installation of the high-energy laser shows that the ATL program continues to make tremendous progress toward giving the warfighter a speed-of-light, precision engagement capability that will dramatically reduce collateral damage," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of Boeing Missile Defense Systems. "Next year, we will fire the laser at ground targets, demonstrating the military utility of this transformational directed energy weapon."

The program achieved two other major milestones earlier this year. "Low-power" flight tests were completed in June at Kirtland; the ATL aircraft used its flight demonstration hardware and a low-power laser to find and track moving and stationary ground targets. The flight demonstration hardware includes the beam control system; weapon system consoles, which display high-resolution imagery and enable the tracking of targets; and sensors.

The low-power laser, a surrogate for the high-energy laser, hit its intended target in each of more than a dozen tests. Also, in late July, the high-energy laser concluded laboratory testing at the Davis Advanced Laser Facility at Kirtland, demonstrating reliable operations in more than 50 firings.

ATL, which Boeing is developing for the U.S. Department of Defense, will destroy, damage or disable targets with little to no collateral damage, supporting missions on the battlefield and in urban operations. Boeing's Advanced Tactical Laser industry team includes L-3 Communications/Brashear, which made the laser turret, and HYTEC, Inc., which made various structural elements of the weapon system.



All this thing needs to do is drop 90% of its weight and I can weld one into the bed of the ranger of LASER doom.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #329 - Dec 11th, 2007 at 11:19pm
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So, when will they make one small enough to fit on a shark's forehead?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #330 - Dec 12th, 2007 at 8:00am
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Probably not soon enough, the dolphins have learned our secret of thumbs...it is just a matter of time until they take over now.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #331 - Dec 12th, 2007 at 1:18pm
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Ack!  The Dolphins killed Willy!



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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #332 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 1:50pm
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Whales may have come from deer-like animal

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer 28 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - It sounds like a stretch, but a new study suggests that the missing evolutionary link between whales and land animals is an odd raccoon-sized animal that looks like a long-tailed deer without antlers. Or an overgrown long-legged rat.

The creature is called Indohyus, and recently dug up fossils reveal some crucial evolutionary similarities between it and water-dwelling cetaceans, such as whales, dolphins and porpoises.

For years, the hippo has been the leading candidate for the closest land relative because of its similar DNA and whale-like features. So some scientists were skeptical of the new hypothesis by an Ohio anatomy professor whose work was being published Thursday in the journal Nature.

Still, some researchers have been troubled that hippos seem to have lived in the wrong part of the world and popped up too recently to be a whale ancestor.

Newer fossils point to the deer-like Indohyus. The animal is a "missing link" to the sister species to ancient whales, said Hans Thewissen, an anatomy professor at Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine.

"As a zoo animal, it looks nothing like a whale," Thewissen said. But, he added, when it comes to anatomical features, the Indohyus "is quite strikingly like one."

Thewissen, who earlier published papers on fossils of what he called the first amphibious whale and the skeleton of the oldest known whale, studied hundreds of Indohyus bones unearthed from mudstone in the Kashmir region of India. From that cache of bones he created a composite skeleton of a 48 million-year-old creature.

The key finding connecting Indohyus to the whale is its thickened ear bone, something only seen in cetaceans. An examination of its teeth showed that the land-dwelling creature spent lots of time in the water and may have fed there, like hippos and whales. Also, the specific positioning and shape of certain molars connects Indohyus to the earliest whales, which are about 50 million years old, Thewissen said.

"The earliest whales didn't look like whales at all," Thewissen said. "It looked like a cross between a pig and a dog." They lost their legs and ability to walk on land about 40 million years ago, he said.

And the Indohyus? "A tiny little deer maybe the size of a raccoon and no antlers," Thewissen said. He said it most resembles the current African mousedeer, which has a rat-like nose and "when danger approaches, it jumps in the water and hides."

India and Pakistan were the general region where early whales lived. That matches with the Indohyus but not the early African hippos, Thewissen said. While modern-day cetaceans are known to be smart, early whales and Indohyus had small brains, the researcher said.

Other scientists were intrigued, but far from convinced, especially since the case for hippos has looked good, they said.

"While this new hypothesis for the origin of whales is compelling, it will require further testing, especially since other recent studies have suggested both hippos and Raoellids were involved in whale ancestry," San Diego State University biology professor Annalisa Berta said in an e-mail. Raoellids are the larger grouping of species that include the Indohyus.

Kenneth Rose, a professor of functional anatomy and evolution at Johns Hopkins University, said Thewissen didn't provide enough evidence to merit his conclusions. He also questioned the use of the composite skeleton. The ear bone thickness, the key trait that Thewissen used, was difficult to judge and seemed based on a single specimen, Rose said. Much of the work is based on teeth, and overall the remains preserved from this family of species are poorly preserved, he said.

Thewissen said there are problems with not enough well preserved fossils, but he said what's left makes a strong case for Indohyus as the closest land ancestor — with hippos as the closest living land relative.


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071219/capt.30b186edd83f4e3f8e82607b3a3def3...
Quote:
This undated handout artist rendering provided by Northeastern Ohio Universities Colleges of Medicine and Pharmacy (NEOUCOM) shows a piece of a Indohyus skull.


Really?  Are you guys kidding?  A deer is the missing link between 6 ton animals and 600lb cows?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #333 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:38pm
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X wrote on Dec 19th, 2007 at 1:50pm:
600lb cows?


Dang, Pat!  I know Wes's mom has an eating disorder, but that's just not right!



-b0b
(...grabs the steak sauce.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #334 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:46pm
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I wonder how many different species are cataloged when there is only a genetic difference from one animal to another. They might find a baby deer as opposed to a large deer and catalog that as a new species. How are they to know? They don't know that animal's condition when it was alive, all they have is bones. A hunched over human with a big skull does not mean caveman! It could be an old old man!

Skulls keep changing over a period of someone's life. Someone that lives for 400 years is going to have a different shaped skull than a young person. Older people have larger eyebrows and more sunken eyes... what would a 600 year old have? Neanderthals are just old old people.

These folks find a skeleton and since it is not exactly like other animals, they will classify it as a new species. well goodness, a tiger skeleton is a different shape from a kitten but its still a bloody cat.

6 foot clam shells at the tops of mountains? still a clam. Back in the day when God created all of the creatures and us, they were all created perfect. When sin entered the world it started a breakdown of genetic data. We... and animals are all thousands of copies ranging back to ancient times.

Sure our genetics can change, but thats because our bodies and animal bodies were made to be able to adapt. God loves diversity. Animals that have become small cats or large cats became that way because of breeding, same as you would horses or dogs. You breed out undesirable traits. Except in nature it is random. It is not the adding of information it is the phasing out of certain traits or expanding on certain ones. Its why there are tigers with huge sabre teeth. Large cats with large teeth kept breeding till they became a dental nightmare. Or maybe  thats what cats originally looked like and the smaller toothed ones kept breeding till we had a house cat. We don't know!

Its the same with humanity. We were all created with brown skin. This brown has both light and dark melanin. The potential is there for both light and dark skin. When some people went up north, they needed less melanin so they became lighter. They no longer have the light melanin genes to produce a dark skinned person. Same with dark skinned. (aside from genetic defects... i.e. albinos)

Traits can be exaggerated through breeding. Several lines of kings in Europe only bred within their families to keep the bloodline pure. So if the family trait was large noses... this was blown WAY out of proportion because both parents had the same large nose gene(s).

Anyway what I am trying to say is what these folks keep finding is proof of changing traits, not links in between the kinds of animals. I do not consider a house cat and a tiger to be different... they are both cats, just one can kill me if it wants to. This happened through breeding, etc... not the adding of information through so called macro evolution.

trying to link together animals by "ear bone thickness" shows just how bloody off these scientists can be. They try to fit everything to evolution without actually having proof. Hippos between land animals and whales? wtf? What's to say such a link would even be around today? See to prove their theory they need a link between water and land animals! There is none! Keep searching and wasting money.

Creatures are going extinct ... I don't see any new kinds of animals sprouting up. Everything in this earth right now is breaking down... Humans are not getting better and better as evolution says things do over time... we are getting much more broken! genetic diseases, abnormalities, birth defects, the list goes on!


The very nature of the world is death, but Jesus is Life.

That is all.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #335 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:48pm
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MediaMaster wrote on Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:46pm:
The very nature of the world is death, but Jesus is Life.

That is all.


Well, there it is in a nutshell.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #336 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:49pm
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Quote:
The very nature of the world is death, but Jesus is Life.

That is all.


Oh yo hum...I fond the meaning to life la dee dah.

No, you're right Briney.  Everyone has presuppositions.  We have ours, and they have theirs.  The only difference.  In their worldview they can't support their beliefs.  In ours we have God and The Bible to base everything on.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #337 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:51pm
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Yea both require a leap of faith to believe. But our faith has different rewards, eh?
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #338 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:59pm
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Another difference is out faith is actually founded on something.  Whereas in their worldview they can't prove anything they claim or use.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #339 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 3:51pm
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Yeah, and we get a buffet once a month.  Top that, science!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #340 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 4:04pm
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Quote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/COMMENTARY/10...

Year of global cooling
December 19, 2007

By David Deming - Al Gore says global warming is a planetary emergency. It is difficult to see how this can be so when record low temperatures are being set all over the world. In 2007, hundreds of people died, not from global warming, but from cold weather hazards.

Since the mid-19th century, the mean global temperature has increased by 0.7 degrees Celsius. This slight warming is not unusual, and lies well within the range of natural variation. Carbon dioxide continues to build in the atmosphere, but the mean planetary temperature hasn't increased significantly for nearly nine years. Antarctica is getting colder. Neither the intensity nor the frequency of hurricanes has increased. The 2007 season was the third-quietest since 1966. In 2006 not a single hurricane made landfall in the U.S.

South America this year experienced one of its coldest winters in decades. In Buenos Aires, snow fell for the first time since the year 1918. Dozens of homeless people died from exposure. In Peru, 200 people died from the cold and thousands more became infected with respiratory diseases. Crops failed, livestock perished, and the Peruvian government declared a state of emergency.

Unexpected bitter cold swept the entire Southern Hemisphere in 2007. Johannesburg, South Africa, had the first significant snowfall in 26 years. Australia experienced the coldest June ever. In northeastern Australia, the city of Townsville underwent the longest period of continuously cold weather since 1941. In New Zealand, the weather turned so cold that vineyards were endangered.

Last January, $1.42 billion worth of California produce was lost to a devastating five-day freeze. Thousands of agricultural employees were thrown out of work. At the supermarket, citrus prices soared. In the wake of the freeze, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger asked President Bush to issue a disaster declaration for affected counties. A few months earlier, Mr. Schwarzenegger had enthusiastically signed the California Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006, a law designed to cool the climate. California Sen. Barbara Boxer continues to push for similar legislation in the U.S. Senate.

In April, a killing freeze destroyed 95 percent of South Carolina's peach crop, and 90 percent of North Carolina's apple harvest. At Charlotte, N.C., a record low temperature of 21 degrees Fahrenheit on April 8 was the coldest ever recorded for April, breaking a record set in 1923. On June 8, Denver recorded a new low of 31 degrees Fahrenheit. Denver's temperature records extend back to 1872.

Recent weeks have seen the return of unusually cold conditions to the Northern Hemisphere. On Dec. 7, St. Cloud, Minn., set a new record low of minus 15 degrees Fahrenheit. On the same date, record low temperatures were also recorded in Pennsylvania and Ohio.

Extreme cold weather is occurring worldwide. On Dec. 4, in Seoul, Korea, the temperature was a record minus 5 degrees Celsius. Nov. 24, in Meacham, Ore., the minimum temperature was 12 degrees Fahrenheit colder than the previous record low set in 1952. The Canadian government warns that this winter is likely to be the coldest in 15 years.

Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri are just emerging from a destructive ice storm that left at least 36 people dead and a million without electric power. People worldwide are being reminded of what used to be common sense: Cold temperatures are inimical to human welfare and warm weather is beneficial. Left in the dark and cold, Oklahomans rushed out to buy electric generators powered by gasoline, not solar cells. No one seemed particularly concerned about the welfare of polar bears, penguins or walruses. Fossil fuels don't seem so awful when you're in the cold and dark.

If you think any of the preceding facts can falsify global warming, you're hopelessly naive. Nothing creates cognitive dissonance in the mind of a true believer. In 2005, a Canadian Greenpeace representative explained “global warming can mean colder, it can mean drier, it can mean wetter.” In other words, all weather variations are evidence for global warming. I can't make this stuff up.

Global warming has long since passed from scientific hypothesis to the realm of pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

David Deming is a geophysicist, an adjunct scholar with the National Center for Policy Analysis, and associate professor of Arts and Sciences at the University of Oklahoma.




But, but, but...!  It's still global warming!  That author is just too uninformed, misinformed, or lazy to understand what Mr. Gore knows!  I'm sure he'll be along shortly, golden statue in tow, to enlighten us all!

Bah!  Gore will continue preaching about global warming for the next decade.  When it becomes painfully obvious the climate is not changing, he will declare victory at having defeated human-caused global warming.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #341 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 4:13pm
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How could the person who invented the internet, slew manbearpig, and won the nobel prize for pussies be wrong?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #342 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 4:43pm
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Plus those pearls don't even go with that dress...

Smiley

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #343 - Dec 26th, 2007 at 1:09am
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http://www.expelledthemovie.com/video.php

I really want to see this movie...check out the trailer!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #344 - Dec 29th, 2007 at 1:39pm
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I don't know how I missed this story...found it on AIG:

Quote:
Israeli researchers: 'Lucy' is not direct ancestor of humans
By JUDY SIEGEL-ITZKOVICH

Tel Aviv University anthropologists say they have disproven the theory that "Lucy" - the world-famous 3.2-million-year-old Australopithecus afarensis skeleton found in Ethiopia 33 years ago - is the last ancestor common to humans and another branch of the great apes family known as the "Robust hominids."
[The jaw bone of Lucy and the...]

The jaw bone of Lucy and the jaw bone of Australopithecus afarensis.
Photo: Courtesy

The specific structure found in Lucy also appears in a species called Australopithecus robustus. Prof. Yoel Rak and colleagues at the Sackler School of Medicine's department of anatomy and anthropology wrote, "The presence of the morphology in both the latter and Australopithecus afarensis and its absence in modern humans cast doubt on the role of [Lucy] as a common ancestor."

The robust hominids were discovered in southern Africa 69 years ago and are believed to have lived between 2 million and 1.2 million years ago. Their jaws and jaw muscles were adapted to the dry environment in which they lived.

Rak and colleagues studied 146 mature primate bone specimens, including those from modern humans, gorillas, chimpanzees and orangutans and found that the "ramus element" of the mandible connecting the lower jaw to the skull is like that of the robust forms, therefore eliminating the possibility that Lucy and her kind are Man's direct ancestors. They should therefore, the Israeli researchers said, "be placed as the beginning of the branch that evolved in parallel to ours."

Their research has just been published in the on-line edition of PNAS, the Proceedings of the [US] National Academy of Sciences.

Lucy, which means "you are wonderful" in Amharic, was discovered (40 percent of its skeleton) by the International Afar Research Expedition in Ethiopia's Awash Valley. Fitting the bones together, they said it was an upright walking hominid (Homo sapiens, which comprises modern Man and extinct manlike species). They later found its jaws and additional bones.

Further analysis led the Afar researchers to believe it was of a female, and the skeleton listed as AL 288-1 was nicknamed Lucy because the Beatles' song "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" was often played at the camp.

The specimen was only 1.1 meters tall, estimated to weigh 29 kilograms and look somewhat like a common chimpanzee. Although it had a small brain, the pelvis and leg bones were almost identical in function with those of modern humans, proving that these hominids had walked erect.

Although fossils closer to chimpanzees have been found since then, Lucy - which is housed in the national museum in Addis Ababa - is prized by anthropologists who study Man's origin.

Rak and his colleagues also wrote that the structure of Lucy's mandibular ramus closely matches that of gorillas, which was "unexpected" because chimpanzees are the closest living relatives of humans, and not gorillas.


Now if they'll only admit that she's a monkey...I'd be ok with the findings here.

From another article:

Quote:
The Chronicle’s Lisa Falkenberg records a few of the diverse opinions overheard at the exhibit (fully titled “Lucy’s Legacy: The Hidden Treasures of Ethiopia”):

    She walked over to examine the lifelike 3 ½foot, hairy, half-smiling model of what scientists believe Lucy looked like and had her own questions.

    “They don’t have any finger bones, so how do they know her hand was like that?” Marla Bryant asked her mother, Leona Rice.

    “They’re guessing,” Rice replied.

    Young Garrett processed the scene for a few more minutes and then shrugged.

    “She’s just a monkey,” he declared, and then walked off.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #345 - Dec 29th, 2007 at 4:27pm
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If Lucy was discovered 69 years ago (1938), how the heck did they name her after a song that wasn't written until 1967?  Did the camp radio play music from the future?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #346 - Dec 29th, 2007 at 7:02pm
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I'm pretty sure its saying the species Australopithecus robustus was discovered 69 years ago, and Lucy was discovered 33 years ago.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #347 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 5:23am
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I always find it funny that the Beatles song is about drugs.

Lucy in the
Sky With
Diamonds

L.S.D.

Hmm these scientists dropping some acid eh?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #348 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 12:37pm
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Actually, the Beatles always claimed Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds was based on a painting done by John Lennon's son, Julian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_in_the_Sky_with_Diamonds#Julian.27s_drawing

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #349 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 5:47pm
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When questioned about "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds," he noted that Julian's painting had inspired the song, but that it was "pretty obvious" that the song was inspired by LSD.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #350 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 6:49pm
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X wrote on Dec 30th, 2007 at 5:47pm:
Quote:
When questioned about "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds," he noted that Julian's painting had inspired the song, but that it was "pretty obvious" that the song was inspired by LSD.


X
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Quote:
In The Beatles Anthology (2000), Ringo Starr claimed he was present when Julian showed his "crazy little painting". McCartney recounted the time he and Lennon spent in Lennon's music room, swapping suggestions for lyrics, saying, "We never noticed the LSD initial until it was pointed out later, by which point people didn't believe us."[5]


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #351 - Dec 30th, 2007 at 9:04pm
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They were so hoped up on LSD they probably forgot about it...just like how pot smokers think they have the best ideas when they're high and then they forget them later on.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #352 - Dec 31st, 2007 at 9:16am
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thats why you paint while you are high!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #353 - Dec 31st, 2007 at 1:51pm
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And you would know?

So is that why your self molds are always out of perportion...especially when you use the penis sculptor?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #354 - Dec 31st, 2007 at 2:02pm
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MediaMaster wrote on Dec 31st, 2007 at 9:16am:
thats why you paint while you are high!


Hey, it worked for Bob Ross.



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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #355 - Dec 31st, 2007 at 2:14pm
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High or not...that man was a genius!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #356 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 8:34am
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Quote:
Titan's Surface Organics Surpass Oil Reserves on Earth

02.13.08

Saturn's orange moon Titan has hundreds of times more liquid hydrocarbons than all the known oil and natural gas reserves on Earth, according to new data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The hydrocarbons rain from the sky, collecting in vast deposits that form lakes and dunes.

The new findings from the study led by Ralph Lorenz, Cassini radar team member from the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md., are reported in the Jan. 29 issue of the Geophysical Research Letters.

"Titan is just covered in carbon-bearing material -- it's a giant factory of organic chemicals," said Lorenz. "This vast carbon inventory is an important window into the geology and climate history of Titan."

At a balmy minus 179 degrees Celsius (minus 290 degrees Fahrenheit), Titan is a far cry from Earth. Instead of water, liquid hydrocarbons in the form of methane and ethane are present on the moon's surface, and tholins probably make up its dunes. The term "tholins"was coined by Carl Sagan in 1979 to describe the complex organic molecules at the heart of prebiotic chemistry.

Cassini has mapped about 20 percent of Titan's surface with radar. Several hundred lakes and seas have been observed, with each of several dozen estimated to contain more hydrocarbon liquid than Earth's oil and gas reserves. The dark dunes that run along the equator contain a volume of organics several hundred times larger than Earth's coal reserves.

Proven reserves of natural gas on Earth total 130 billion tons, enough to provide 300 times the amount of energy the entire United States uses annually for residential heating, cooling and lighting. Dozens of Titan's lakes individually have the equivalent of at least this much energy in the form of methane and ethane.

"This global estimate is based mostly on views of the lakes in the northern polar regions. We have assumed the south might be similar, but we really don't yet know how much liquid is there," said Lorenz. Cassini's radar has observed the south polar region only once, and only two small lakes were visible. Future observations of that area are planned during Cassini's proposed extended mission.

Scientists estimated Titan's lake depth by making some general assumptions based on lakes on Earth. They took the average area and depth of lakes on Earth, taking into account the nearby surroundings, like mountains. On Earth, the lake depth is often 10 times less than the height of nearby terrain.

"We also know that some lakes are more than 10 meters or so deep because they appear literally pitch-black to the radar. If they were shallow we'd see the bottom, and we don't," said Lorenz.

The question of how much liquid is on the surface is an important one because methane is a strong greenhouse gas on Titan as well as on Earth, but there is much more of it on Titan. If all the observed liquid on Titan is methane, it would only last a few million years, because as methane escapes into Titan's atmosphere, it breaks down and escapes into space. If the methane were to run out, Titan could become much colder. Scientists believe that methane might be supplied to the atmosphere by venting from the interior in cryovolcanic eruptions. If so, the amount of methane, and the temperature on Titan, may have fluctuated dramatically in Titan's past.

"We are carbon-based life, and understanding how far along the chain of complexity towards life that chemistry can go in an environment like Titan will be important in understanding the origins of life throughout the universe," added Lorenz.

Cassini's next radar flyby of Titan is on Feb. 22, when the radar instrument will observe the Huygens probe landing site.

For images and more information visit: http://www.nasa.gov/cassini and http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov .

The Cassini-Huygens mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages the Cassini-Huygens mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. The Cassini orbiter was designed, developed and assembled at JPL. The radar instrument was built by JPL and the Italian Space Agency, working with team members from the United States and several European countries.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-20080213.html


Wow, that's a lot of dead dinosaurs!  Or, maybe it's possible that dead dinosaurs and vegetation aren't the sole source of fossil fuels?

I guess it is finally time to build that space elevator we keep hearing about!

-b0b
(...thinks Titan might be gassier than Wes's Mom.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #357 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:27am
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Or maybe it's not oil at all...but a life form that is oil based...like in X-Files!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #358 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:10pm
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If this oil-based life form ends up killing Tasha Yar, I'm going to be seriously unhappy.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #359 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:13pm
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Ooo speaking of which...I'm going to be meeting the actress in May!  Go me!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #360 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:26pm
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Do me a favor and punch her right in the ovaries.  It's her fault that TNG's writers had to throw together some crappy ending for her character.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #361 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 10:34am
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080229/ap_on_sc/snake_phobia

Snake phobia hardwired
Quote:
Two University of Virginia researchers believe that humans are genetically predisposed to be deathly afraid of snakes. Judy S. DeLoache, a U.Va. professor of developmental psychology, said she has a snake phobia, but wonders why. "The question was, where did that fear come from?"

She believes it's because snakes would have posed a significant threat to our ancestors, so a fear of snakes remains hardwired into human brains today.


The serpent in the Garden of Eden!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #362 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 12:16pm
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So are we afraid of lions, elephants, hippos, and everything else that could kill us after running us down and breaking our weak bodies?

I'm sorry but a collective phobia cannot be passed down.  You'd have to believe in genetic memories if that's true.  Good luck trying to prove that.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #363 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 4:11pm
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Quote:
Giant "Sea Monster" Fossil Discovered in Arctic

James Owen
for National Geographic News
February 26, 2008

A massive prehistoric sea reptile that was longer than a humpback whale and had teeth the size of cucumbers has been found by fossil hunters on a remote Arctic island. (See pictures of the "sea monster.")

Measuring some 50 feet (15 meters) in length, the bone-crunching predator represents one of the largest marine reptiles ever known, according to a team led by Jørn Hurum of the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway.

The 150-million-year-old creature was first discovered in 2006 on Spitsbergen, part of Norway's Svalbard archipelago, in a polar wasteland littered with fossilized sea reptiles (see map).

(Read related story: "Dino-Era 'Sea Monster' Found on Arctic Island" [October 6, 2006].)

"We knew immediately this was something special," Hurum said. "The large pieces of bone and the structure of the fragments told us that this was big."

Hurum's team returned last summer to the Arctic island to excavate the fossil.

Removing a hundred tons of rock by hand while watching out for polar bears, the team recovered a large chunk of the skeleton, including portions of its estimated ten-foot-long (three-meter) skull, an almost complete forelimb, and sections of its dinner-plate-size vertebrae.

Dubbed "the Monster," it's thought to be a previously unknown species of plesiosaur.

"It's as big or bigger than the largest plesiosaur ever found," Hurum said. "This absolutely looks like a new species," he added.

(See 3-D animations of other sea monsters in our interactive time line.)

"T. Rex of the Ocean"

Plesiosaurs were marine reptiles that typically had small heads, long necks, and large flippers.

But the newfound plesiosaur is thought to have been a pliosaur, and pliosaurs were different from other plesiosaurs.

With short necks and massive heads, pliosaurs became the top marine predators during the Jurassic period, 200 to 145 million years ago.

Hurum said the newly excavated specimen is 20 percent bigger than what was until now the largest known pliosaur, Kronosaurus from Australia.

Calling the latest find "the T. rex of the ocean," Hurum said it "would have eaten other marine reptiles and maybe some of the huge bony fishes that were around at that time."

The newly excavated pliosaur was unveiled today at the Natural History Museum in Oslo.

Patrick Druckenmiller, a plesiosaur expert at the University of Alaska's Museum of the North, was a member of the expedition team that found and excavated the Arctic fossil.

"Not only is this specimen significant in that it is one of the largest and relatively complete plesiosaurs ever found, it also demonstrates that these gigantic animals inhabited the northern seas of our planet during the age of dinosaurs," Druckenmiller commented.

"Although we didn't get the entire skeleton, we found many of the most important parts," Druckenmiller said. "Amazingly, the paddle [of its forelimb] alone is nearly ten feet [three meters] long."

The fossil was found in permafrost among a prehistoric "graveyard" of large marine reptiles approximately 800 miles (1,300 kilometers) from the North Pole.

(See related pictures: "'Sea Monster' Graveyard Found in the Arctic".)

The site represents one of the richest accumulations of marine reptiles in the world, according to Hurum, who led the Artic fossil hunt.

The creatures swam in temperate seas and sank to the ocean floor after they died, where their bodies were preserved in soft mud.

Some 40 skeletons have been located to date. Most belonged to long-necked plesiosaurs and dolphin-shaped ichthyosaurs, Hurum said.

Another pliosaur specimen was also found last year, however.

"Hopefully it will be just as big as the first," Hurum said.

This newest fossil may help provide pieces that are missing from Monster's partial skeleton, he added.

"It seems to have more teeth, and hopefully there's more of a skull inside the hill [where it was found]. But first we have to move the hill," Hurum said.

The researchers plan to excavate the second pliosaur when they return to Spitsbergen this summer.

Plesiosaur expert Richard Forrest, affiliated with the New Walk Museum in Leicester, England, said pliosaur skeletons are extremely rare.

"As is the case with any big predator, the further up the food chain you go, the fewer you find," Forrest said.

Meal Breaks

Since pliosaurs were reptiles, which have slow metabolisms, they probably had long breaks between meals, he said.

"If [Monster] was eating something like a large plesiosaur, it would probably get enough food to keep it going for a couple of months," Forrest added.

Pliosaurs are thought to have been ambush predators, using their giant flippers to launch ferocious attacks.

"We don't think they were particularly good at cruising but were very good at accelerating, so they'd lurk in the depths and shoot up to catch things," Forrest said.

Pliosaurs likely had the most powerful bite force of any predator, living or extinct, he added.

"It can't think of any animal that would even come close," Forrest said.

"Inside their enormous skulls they had huge areas of muscle available for biting force. One of these animals would have been big and strong enough to pick up a small car and bite it in half."

Forrest added that he recently studied the remains of a 23-foot-long (7-meter) plesiosaur that almost certainly fell victim to a pliosaur.

"There's evidence that it was hit extremely hard and basically just ripped apart," he said.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080226-sea-monsters.html



/TheMonsterisportrayedhereleapingaft.jpg

/A150-million-year-oldpliosaurwithte.jpg

/4_MONSTER_461.jpg

/AnewlyexcavatedpliosaurfromtheArcti.jpg

That illustration is hilarious.

Oslo scientist: "We found this small fragment, a larger chunk, er, uh... this looks like some bones... and, er... this thing here appears to be half a flipper.  We had an artist rendering made of what the beast looked like.  It had teeth the size of cucumbers."

I am still fascinated by dinosaurs today just like when I was 5, but really, what a pile of ass.  I understand how the conclusions are drawn, but this is pure speculation ceremoniously portrayed as bold fact.

Also, just because this thing is 20% larger doesn't mean it is a new species.  There are far greater size variations within nearly every species of reptile, particularly past the reproductive age.

I think it is great these guys have a job digging up cool stuff.  I also think they take themselves way too seriously.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #364 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 4:47pm
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Are you saying that scientists draw false conclusions based on their worldview of what they want things to be rather than looking at the data and concluding that they don't have enough to draw a conclusion yet?

But...but...how will they get more federally sponsored grant money that way?!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #365 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:26pm
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From AiG's website:

Quote:
LiveScience: “Petrified Animals Died Quickly”

A team examining a fossil deposit in the Canadian Rockies has determined that the fossil “bonanza” was buried by a rapid, muddy “miracle of preservation.”

The team, from the University of Leicester, was looking at the Burgess Shale graveyard, where petrified bodies have been found with even soft tissue preserved. Scientists have found the remains of worms, eyes, and internal organs among the fossils at the site. But since the fossils were discovered in 1909, paleontologists have wondered what allowed such extensive preservation.

The researchers—geologist Jan Zalasiewicz and paleontologist Sarah Gabbott—concluded that the deposit was created by a rapid mud slurry that covered the bodies so completely that whole bodies were petrified. They also found that the rock layers were probably the result of the mud slurry that buried the unsuspecting creatures at the bottom of the site, which the scientists believe was then a sea bed.

Zalasiewicz explains that the mud slurry would have carried the creatures below the level at which scavengers or even most bacteria could have reached the corpses, with later mudslides (perhaps caused by earthquakes) burying the fossils even deeper.

Zalasiewicz also noted that the fossils are from “early in the history of complex multi-cellular life” and references the enigma of the Cambrian explosion, when, according to the evolutionary interpretation of the fossil record, life “very suddenly” became complex and diverse—still a mystery, as Zalasiewicz calls it, to Darwinists.

Evolutionists now have an explanation for why these fossils are so well-preserved—but it’s the same explanation creationists have had for thousands of years! The Flood model explains, in general, how a watery deluge combined heavy rain with subterranean water activity—and substantial geological and volcanic activity—that reshaped the physical world. From this model, we understand how catastrophic forces (including mud slurries) account for nearly all of the fossils we uncover today and explain the origin of geologic features (canyons, rock layers, etc.).

Those who accept millions of years continue to resort to a local catastrophe here, a local catastrophe there; a mud slide here, a flood there. Biblical creationists see this as triggered by the global Flood of Noah’s age—a Flood documented in civilizations around the world.


Oh evolutionists...you crack me up.  Just come to our side and let's hug and make up.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #366 - Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:47pm
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A rapid, muddy event, eh?  I wonder what could've caused that?

-b0b
(...*cough*FLOOD*cough*)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #367 - Mar 4th, 2008 at 9:31am
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Quote:
Weather Channel Founder Blasts Network; Claims It Is 'Telling Us What to Think'
TWC founder and global warming skeptic advocates suing Al Gore to expose 'the fraud of global warming.'

By Jeff Poor
Business & Media Institute
3/3/2008 6:11:04 PM



The Weather Channel has lost its way, according to John Coleman, who founded the channel in 1982.

Coleman told an audience at the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change on March 3 in New York that he is highly critical of global warming alarmism.

“The Weather Channel had great promise, and that’s all gone now because they’ve made every mistake in the book on what they’ve done and how they’ve done it and it’s very sad,” Coleman said. “It’s now for sale and there’s a new owner of The Weather Channel will be announced – several billion dollars having changed hands in the near future. Let’s hope the new owners can recapture the vision and stop reporting the traffic, telling us what to think and start giving us useful weather information.”

The Weather Channel has been an outlet for global warming alarmism. In December 2006, The Weather Channel’s Heidi Cullen argued on her blog that weathercasters who had doubts about human influence on global warming should be punished with decertification by the American Meteorological Society.

Coleman also told the audience his strategy for exposing what he called “the fraud of global warming.” He advocated suing those who sell carbon credits, which would force global warming alarmists to give a more honest account of the policies they propose.

“ have a feeling this is the opening,” Coleman said. “If the lawyers will take the case – sue the people who sell carbon credits. That includes Al Gore. That lawsuit would get so much publicity, so much media attention. And as the experts went to the media stand to testify, I feel like that could become the vehicle to finally put some light on the fraud of global warming.”

Earlier at the conference Lord Christopher Monckton, a policy adviser to former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, told an audience that the science will eventually prevail and the “scare” of global warming will go away. He also said the courts were a good avenue to show the science.


Bahahaha, awesome!  It's good to see that somebody with half a brain is on our side!

-b0b
(...needs to get in on the carbon credit craze.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #368 - Mar 4th, 2008 at 3:19pm
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What the hell am I going to do with $3 trillion worth of carbon credits??
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #369 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 2:01pm
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_sc/dinosaur_mummy

Quote:
Using tiny brushes and chisels, workers picking at a big greenish-black rock in the basement of North Dakota's state museum are meticulously uncovering something amazing: a nearly complete dinosaur, skin and all.


Quote:
Animal tissue typically decomposes quickly after death. Researchers say Dakota must have been buried rapidly and in just the right environment for the texture of the skin to be preserved.

"The process of decay was overtaken by that of fossilization, preserving many of the soft-tissue structures," Manning said.


Heh. Flood.

Most of the skeletons they find anyway were in an environment with rapidly flowing water.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #370 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:31pm
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Ok Mr. Scientist let me tell you where you are wrong there:

Quote:
"The process of decay was overtaken by that of fossilization, preserving many of the soft-tissue structures,"


If you have fossilization you WILL NOT HAVE ANY SOFT-TISSUES...things either fossilize or decay over that big period of time.  Now decay and partial fossilization may occur but the specimen can't be as old as you think it is.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #371 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 3:45pm
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I blame it on Jurassic dinosaur mud wrestling.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #372 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 5:29pm
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http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4486044

The MSM hit piece of Creationism...listen to the museum curator's statements and see if you can't substitute what he's saying about Creationists with evolutionists.  Also the 2nd time he's on the screen listen to his Freudian slip.

AIG on the 4th story down here - http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/03/22/news-to-note-03222008 - has more on it.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #373 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 3:12pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7329799.stm

This would mean global temperatures have not risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #374 - Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:35pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #375 - Apr 23rd, 2008 at 9:24am
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Quote:
Sorry to ruin the fun, but an ice age cometh
Phil Chapman | April 23, 2008

THE scariest photo I have seen on the internet is www.spaceweather.com, where you will find a real-time image of the sun from the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory, located in deep space at the equilibrium point between solar and terrestrial gravity.


What is scary about the picture is that there is only one tiny sunspot.

Disconcerting as it may be to true believers in global warming, the average temperature on Earth has remained steady or slowly declined during the past decade, despite the continued increase in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, and now the global temperature is falling precipitously.

All four agencies that track Earth's temperature (the Hadley Climate Research Unit in Britain, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the Christy group at the University of Alabama, and Remote Sensing Systems Inc in California) report that it cooled by about 0.7C in 2007. This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record and it puts us back where we were in 1930. If the temperature does not soon recover, we will have to conclude that global warming is over.

There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that 2007 was exceptionally cold. It snowed in Baghdad for the first time in centuries, the winter in China was simply terrible and the extent of Antarctic sea ice in the austral winter was the greatest on record since James Cook discovered the place in 1770.

It is generally not possible to draw conclusions about climatic trends from events in a single year, so I would normally dismiss this cold snap as transient, pending what happens in the next few years.

This is where SOHO comes in. The sunspot number follows a cycle of somewhat variable length, averaging 11 years. The most recent minimum was in March last year. The new cycle, No.24, was supposed to start soon after that, with a gradual build-up in sunspot numbers.

It didn't happen. The first sunspot appeared in January this year and lasted only two days. A tiny spot appeared last Monday but vanished within 24 hours. Another little spot appeared this Monday. Pray that there will be many more, and soon.

The reason this matters is that there is a close correlation between variations in the sunspot cycle and Earth's climate. The previous time a cycle was delayed like this was in the Dalton Minimum, an especially cold period that lasted several decades from 1790.

Northern winters became ferocious: in particular, the rout of Napoleon's Grand Army during the retreat from Moscow in 1812 was at least partly due to the lack of sunspots.

That the rapid temperature decline in 2007 coincided with the failure of cycle No.24 to begin on schedule is not proof of a causal connection but it is cause for concern.

It is time to put aside the global warming dogma, at least to begin contingency planning about what to do if we are moving into another little ice age, similar to the one that lasted from 1100 to 1850.

There is no doubt that the next little ice age would be much worse than the previous one and much more harmful than anything warming may do. There are many more people now and we have become dependent on a few temperate agricultural areas, especially in the US and Canada. Global warming would increase agricultural output, but global cooling will decrease it.

Millions will starve if we do nothing to prepare for it (such as planning changes in agriculture to compensate), and millions more will die from cold-related diseases.

There is also another possibility, remote but much more serious. The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores and other evidence show that for the past several million years, severe glaciation has almost always afflicted our planet.

The bleak truth is that, under normal conditions, most of North America and Europe are buried under about 1.5km of ice. This bitterly frigid climate is interrupted occasionally by brief warm interglacials, typically lasting less than 10,000 years.

The interglacial we have enjoyed throughout recorded human history, called the Holocene, began 11,000 years ago, so the ice is overdue. We also know that glaciation can occur quickly: the required decline in global temperature is about 12C and it can happen in 20 years.

The next descent into an ice age is inevitable but may not happen for another 1000 years. On the other hand, it must be noted that the cooling in 2007 was even faster than in typical glacial transitions. If it continued for 20 years, the temperature would be 14C cooler in 2027.

By then, most of the advanced nations would have ceased to exist, vanishing under the ice, and the rest of the world would be faced with a catastrophe beyond imagining.

Australia may escape total annihilation but would surely be overrun by millions of refugees. Once the glaciation starts, it will last 1000 centuries, an incomprehensible stretch of time.

If the ice age is coming, there is a small chance that we could prevent or at least delay the transition, if we are prepared to take action soon enough and on a large enough scale.

For example: We could gather all the bulldozers in the world and use them to dirty the snow in Canada and Siberia in the hope of reducing the reflectance so as to absorb more warmth from the sun.

We also may be able to release enormous floods of methane (a potent greenhouse gas) from the hydrates under the Arctic permafrost and on the continental shelves, perhaps using nuclear weapons to destabilise the deposits.

We cannot really know, but my guess is that the odds are at least 50-50 that we will see significant cooling rather than warming in coming decades.

The probability that we are witnessing the onset of a real ice age is much less, perhaps one in 500, but not totally negligible.

All those urging action to curb global warming need to take off the blinkers and give some thought to what we should do if we are facing global cooling instead.

It will be difficult for people to face the truth when their reputations, careers, government grants or hopes for social change depend on global warming, but the fate of civilisation may be at stake.

In the famous words of Oliver Cromwell, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Phil Chapman is a geophysicist and astronautical engineer who lives in San Francisco. He was the first Australian to become a NASA astronaut.


It'll be interesting to see if this article gets any real coverage in the mass media.  If it's true, sooner or later the temperature is going to drop significantly enough that even the most die-hard liberals are going to realize Global Warming is a sham.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #376 - Apr 23rd, 2008 at 10:12am
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They won't acknowledge it. It will turn into something like the movie Day After Tomorrow where they will say the carbon in the air caused a global cooling or some BS. It's not about saving the earth. For the high ups its another way to tax everyone, for the actors its "hey im making a difference!" and for the rest of us its something to argue about.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #377 - Apr 23rd, 2008 at 10:17am
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It'll come to pass, if this happens, that we'll recognize the sun controls a lot more of our climate than anything us humans do.  Of course I'd rather live in a world that is ignorant rather than one covered in ice.

Briney, you are absolutely, correct.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #378 - Apr 24th, 2008 at 12:08am
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Wow!  For once...Go Florida!

Quote:
Senate Passes Evolution Bill

TALLAHASSEE, FL -- Teachers are one step closer being able to openly criticize the theory of evolution in the classroom.

In a vote of 21 to 17, Florida's State Senators adopted the evolution education bill, also known as the "Academic Freedom Act."

Math and Science experts submitted a new set of education standards earlier this year, standards that were adopted by Florida's State Board of Education. Now, teachers will teach fewer topics but in greater depth.

One subject facing scrutiny is the in-depth teaching of evolution.

State Senator Ronda Storms sponsored the legislation that would allow teachers to teach theories that contradict the theory of evolution.

Although this bill passed Florida's Senate, it still requires approval from the House and Governor.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #379 - Apr 24th, 2008 at 8:23am
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21 to 17?  Where the heck were the rest of the senators?  Was it Senator Skip Day or something?

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #380 - Apr 24th, 2008 at 1:15pm
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This is going to get interesting...

Quote:
It goes without saying that climate realists around the world believe Nobel Laureate Al Gore used false information throughout his schlockumentary "An Inconvenient Truth" in order to generate global warming hysteria.

On Friday, it was revealed by ABC News that one of the famous shots of supposed Antarctic ice shelves in the film was actually a computer-generated image from the 2004 science fiction blockbuster "The Day After Tomorrow."

Adding delicious insult to injury, this was presented by one of ABC's foremost global warming alarmists Sam Champion during Friday's "20/20":

SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

(Voiceover) Al Gore's 2006 documentary, 'An Inconvenient Truth," makes the same point with actual video of ice shelves calving. Which shots have more impact?

AL GORE (FORMER UNITED STATES VICE PRESIDENT)

And if you were flying over it in a helicopter, you'd see it's 700 feet tall. They are so majestic.

SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

(Voiceover) Wait a minute, that shot looks just like the one in the opening credits of "The Day After Tomorrow."

KAREN GOULEKAS (VISUAL EFFECTS SUPERVISOR)

Yeah, that's, that's our shot. That's a fully computer generated shot. There's nothing real in there.

SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

(Voiceover) Audiences expect Hollywood to twist fact into fiction. But Gore's documentary does the opposite, using a fake shot to make a real point, that ice shelves are disappearing, and vanishing ice means global warming.

Apparently, ABC tried to get a comment from Gore concerning the matter, but none was forthcoming:

SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

(Off-camera) And it raises another question for you to consider. Is it wrong for a documentary to use a fabricated Hollywood shot to make a point, even if there's science behind it? Well, we tried to ask Al Gore and the movie studio, but neither responded to our calls.


I think Al Gore should run as Hillary's vice presidential candidate.  You've got to love a guy who is this incredibly incompetent.

-b0b
(...just like Dan Quayle.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #381 - Jun 13th, 2008 at 1:25pm
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http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/19842304.html

From the founder of the Weather Channel:

Quote:
Global Warming and the Price of a Gallon of Gas
by John Coleman

You may want to give credit where credit is due to Al Gore and his global warming campaign the next time you fill your car with gasoline, because there is a direct connection between Global Warming and four dollar a gallon gas.  It is shocking, but true, to learn that the entire Global Warming frenzy is based on the environmentalist’s attack on fossil fuels, particularly gasoline.  All this big time science, international meetings, thick research papers, dire threats for the future; all of it, comes down to their claim that the carbon dioxide in the exhaust from your car and in the smoke stacks from our power plants is destroying the climate of planet Earth.  What an amazing fraud; what a scam.

The future of our civilization lies in the balance.

That’s the battle cry of the High Priest of Global Warming Al Gore and his fellow, agenda driven disciples as they predict a calamitous outcome from anthropogenic global warming.  According to Mr. Gore the polar ice caps will collapse and melt and sea levels will rise 20 feet inundating the coastal cities making 100 million of us refugees.  Vice President Gore tells us numerous Pacific islands will be totally submerged and uninhabitable.  He tells us global warming will disrupt the circulation of the ocean waters, dramatically changing climates, throwing the world food supply into chaos. He tells us global warming will turn hurricanes into super storms, produce droughts, wipe out the polar bears and result in bleaching of coral reefs. He tells us tropical diseases will spread to mid latitudes and heat waves will kill tens of thousands.  He preaches to us that we must change our lives and eliminate fossil fuels or face the dire consequences.  The future of our civilization is in the balance.

With a preacher’s zeal, Mr. Gore sets out to strike terror into us and our children and make us feel we are all complicit in the potential demise of the planet.

Here is my rebuttal.

There is no significant man made global warming.  There has not been any in the past, there is none now and there is no reason to fear any in the future. The climate of Earth is changing. It has always changed.  But mankind’s activities have not overwhelmed or significantly modified the natural forces.

Through all history, Earth has shifted between two basic climate regimes: ice ages and what paleoclimatologists call “Interglacial periods”.  For the past 10 thousand years the Earth has been in an interglacial period.  That might well be called nature’s global warming because what happens during an interglacial period is the Earth warms up, the glaciers melt and life flourishes. Clearly from our point of view, an interglacial period is greatly preferred to the deadly rigors of an ice age.  Mr. Gore and his crowd would have us believe that the activities of man have overwhelmed nature during this interglacial period and are producing an unprecedented, out of control warming.

Well, it is simply not happening.  Worldwide there was a significant natural warming trend in the 1980’s and 1990’s as a Solar cycle peaked with lots of sunspots and solar flares.  That ended in 1998 and now the Sun has gone quiet with fewer and fewer Sun spots, and the global temperatures have gone into decline.  Earth has cooled for almost ten straight years.  So, I ask Al Gore, where’s the global warming?

The cooling trend is so strong that recently the head of the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had to acknowledge it.  He speculated that nature has temporarily overwhelmed mankind’s warming and it may be ten years or so before the warming returns.  Oh, really.  We are supposed to be in a panic about man-made global warming and the whole thing takes a ten year break because of the lack of Sun spots.  If this weren’t so serious, it would be laughable.

Now allow me to talk a little about the science behind the global warming frenzy. I have dug through thousands of pages of research papers, including the voluminous documents published by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.  I have worked my way through complicated math and complex theories. Here’s the bottom line: the entire global warming scientific case is based on the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from the use of fossil fuels.  They don’t have any other issue.  Carbon Dioxide, that’s it.

Hello Al Gore; Hello UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.  Your science is flawed; your hypothesis is wrong; your data is manipulated.  And, may I add, your scare tactics are deplorable.  The Earth does not have a fever.  Carbon dioxide does not cause significant global warming.

The focus on atmospheric carbon dioxide grew out a study by Roger Revelle who was an esteemed scientist at the Scripps Oceanographic Institute. He took his research with him when he moved to Harvard and allowed his students to help him process the data for his paper.  One of those students was Al Gore. That is where Gore got caught up in this global warming frenzy.  Revelle’s paper linked the increases in carbon dioxide, CO2, in the atmosphere with warming.  It labeled CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

Charles Keeling, another researcher at the Scripps Oceanographic Institute, set up a system to make continuous CO2 measurements.  His graph of these increases has now become known as the Keeling Curve.  When Charles Keeling died in 2005, his son David, also at Scripps, took over the measurements.  Here is what the Keeling curve shows: an increase in CO2 from 315 parts per million in 1958 to 385 parts per million today, an increase of 70 parts per million or about 20 percent.

All the computer models, all of the other findings, all of the other angles of study, all come back to and are based on CO2 as a significant greenhouse gas. It is not.

Here is the deal about CO2, carbon dioxide.  It is a natural component of our atmosphere.  It has been there since time began.  It is absorbed and emitted by the oceans.  It is used by every living plant to trigger photosynthesis.  Nothing would be green without it.  And we humans; we create it.  Every time we breathe out, we emit carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.  It is not a pollutant. It is not smog.  It is a naturally occurring invisible gas.

Let me illustrate. I estimate that this square in front of my face contains 100,000 molecules of atmosphere.  Of those 100,000 only 38 are CO2; 38 out of a hundred thousand.  That makes it a trace component.  Let me ask a key question: how can this tiny trace upset the entire balance of the climate of Earth?  It can’t.  That’s all there is to it; it can’t.

The UN IPCC has attracted billions of dollars for the research to try to make the case that CO2 is the culprit of run-away, man-made global warming.  The scientists have come up with very complex creative theories and done elaborate calculations and run computer models they say prove those theories. They present us with a concept they call radiative forcing. The research organizations and scientists who are making a career out of this theory, keep cranking out the research papers. Then the IPCC puts on big conferences at exotic places, such as the recent conference in Bali. The scientists endorse each other’s papers, they are summarized and voted on, and viola, we are told global warming is going to kill us all unless we stop burning fossil fuels.

May I stop here for a few historical notes?  First, the internal combustion engine and gasoline were awful polluters when they were first invented.  And, both gasoline and automobile engines continued to leave a layer of smog behind right up through the 1960’s.  Then science and engineering came to the environmental rescue.  Better exhaust and ignition systems, catalytic converters, fuel injectors, better engineering throughout the engine and reformulated gasoline have all contributed to a huge reduction in the exhaust emissions from today’s cars. Their goal then was to only exhaust carbon dioxide and water vapor, two gases widely accepted as natural and totally harmless.  Anyone old enough to remember the pall of smog that used to hang over all our cities knows how much improvement there has been.  So the environmentalists, in their battle against fossil fuels and automobiles had a very good point forty years ago, but now they have to focus almost entirely on the once harmless carbon dioxide.  And, that is the rub.  Carbon dioxide is not an environmental problem; they just want you now to think it is.

Numerous independent research projects have been done about the greenhouse impact from increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide.  These studies have proven to my total satisfaction that CO2 is not creating a major greenhouse effect and is not causing an increase in temperatures.  By the way, before his death, Roger Revelle coauthored a paper cautioning that CO2 and its greenhouse effect did not warrant extreme countermeasures.

So now it has come down to an intense campaign, orchestrated by environmentalists claiming that the burning of fossil fuels dooms the planet to run-away global warming.  Ladies and Gentlemen, that is a myth.

So how has the entire global warming frenzy with all its predictions of dire consequences, become so widely believed, accepted and regarded as a real threat to planet Earth?  That is the most amazing part of the story.

To start with global warming has the backing of the United Nations, a major world force.  Second, it has the backing of a former Vice President and very popular political figure.  Third it has the endorsement of Hollywood, and that’s enough for millions. And, fourth, the environmentalists love global warming.  It is their tool to combat fossil fuels. So with the environmentalists, the UN, Gore and Hollywood touting Global Warming and predictions of doom and gloom, the media has scrambled with excitement to climb aboard.  After all the media loves a crisis.  From YK2 to killer bees the media just loves to tell us our lives are threatened. And the media is biased toward liberal, so it’s pre-programmed to support Al Gore and UN.  CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times, The LA Times, The Washington Post, the Associated Press and here in San Diego The Union Tribune are all constantly promoting the global warming crisis.

So who is going to go against all of that power?  Not the politicians. So now the President of the United States, just about every Governor, most Senators and most Congress people, both of the major current candidates for President, most other elected officials on all levels of government are all riding the Al Gore Global Warming express.  That is one crowded bus.

I suspect you haven’t heard it because the mass media did not report it, but I am not alone on the no man-made warming side of this issue.  On May 20th, a list of the names of over thirty-one thousand scientists who refute global warming was released.  Thirty-one thousand of which 9,000 are Ph.ds.  Think about that.  Thirty-one thousand.  That dwarfs the supposed 2,500 scientists on the UN panel. In the past year, five hundred of scientists have issued public statements challenging global warming.   A few more join the chorus every week.  There are about 100 defectors from the UN IPCC.  There was an International Conference of Climate Change Skeptics in New York in March of this year.  One hundred of us gave presentations.  Attendance was limited to six hundred people.  Every seat was taken. There are a half dozen excellent internet sites that debunk global warming.  And, thank goodness for KUSI and Michael McKinnon, its owner.  He allows me to post my comments on global warming on the website KUSI.com.  Following the publicity of my position form Fox News, Glen Beck on CNN, Rush Limbaugh and a host of other interviews, thousands of people come to the website and read my comments.  I get hundreds of supportive emails from them.  No I am not alone and the debate is not over.

In my remarks in New York I speculated that perhaps we should sue Al Gore for fraud because of his carbon credits trading scheme.  That remark has caused a stir in the fringe media and on the internet.  The concept is that if the media won’t give us a hearing and the other side will not debate us, perhaps we could use a Court of law to present our papers and our research and if the Judge is unbiased and understands science, we win.  The media couldn’t ignore that. That idea has become the basis for legal research by notable attorneys and discussion among global warming debunkers, but it’s a long way from the Court room.

I am very serious about this issue.  I think stamping out the global warming scam is vital to saving our wonderful way of life.

The battle against fossil fuels has controlled policy in this country for decades. It was the environmentalist’s prime force in blocking any drilling for oil in this country and the blocking the building of any new refineries, as well. So now the shortage they created has sent gasoline prices soaring. And, it has lead to the folly of ethanol, which is also partly behind the fuel price increases; that and our restricted oil policy.  The ethanol folly is also creating a food crisis throughput the world – it is behind the food price rises for all the grains, for cereals, bread, everything that relies on corn or soy or wheat, including animals that are fed corn, most processed foods that use corn oil or soybean oil or corn syrup. Food shortages or high costs have led to food riots in some third world countries and made the cost of eating out or at home budget busting for many.

So now the global warming myth actually has lead to the chaos we are now enduring with energy and food prices. We pay for it every time we fill our gas tanks.  Not only is it running up gasoline prices, it has changed government policy impacting our taxes, our utility bills and the entire focus of government funding. And, now the Congress is considering a cap and trade carbon credits policy.  We the citizens will pay for that, too. It all ends up in our taxes and the price of goods and services.

So the Global warming frenzy is, indeed, threatening our civilization.  Not because global warming is real; it is not.  But because of the all the horrible side effects of the global warming scam.

I love this civilization.  I want to do my part to protect it.

If Al Gore and his global warming scare dictates the future policy of our governments, the current economic downturn could indeed become a recession, drift into a depression and our modern civilization could fall into an abyss. And it would largely be a direct result of the global warming frenzy.


My mission, in what is left of a long and exciting lifetime, is to stamp out this Global Warming silliness and let all of us get on with enjoying our lives and loving our planet, Earth.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #382 - Jun 13th, 2008 at 1:33pm
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That's a lengthy read, but very, very worthwhile.  Thanks Brine-dogg!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #383 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 8:36am
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Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,370864,00.html


Scientists have made a breakthrough discovery in the bizarre properties of glass, which behaves at times like both a solid and a liquid.

The finding could lead to aircraft that look like Wonder Woman's plane. Such planes could have wings of glass or something called metallic glass, rather than being totally invisible.

The breakthrough involved solving the decades-old problem of just what glass is.

It has been known that that despite its solid appearance, glass and gels are actually in a "jammed" state of matter — somewhere between liquid and solid — that moves very slowly.

Like cars in a traffic jam, atoms in a glass are in something like suspended animation, unable to reach their destination because the route is blocked by their neighbors.

So even though glass is a hard substance, it never quite becomes a proper solid, according to chemists and materials scientists.

Work so far has concentrated on trying to understand the traffic jam, but now Paddy Royall from the University of Bristol in England, with colleagues in Canberra, Australia and Tokyo, has shown that glass fails to be a solid due to the special atomic structures that form in a glass when it cools.

Icosahedron jams

Some materials crystallize as they cool, arranging their atoms into a highly regular pattern called a lattice, Royall said, but although glass "wants" to be a crystal, as it cools the atoms become jammed in a nearly random arrangement, preventing it from forming a regular lattice.

In the 1950s, Sir Charles Frank in the Physics Department at Bristol suggested that the arrangement of the "jam" should form what is known as an icosahedron, but at the time he was unable to prove it.

An icosahedron is like a 3-D pentagon, and just as you cannot tile a floor with pentagons, you cannot fill 3-D space with icosahedrons, Royall explained. That is, you can't make a lattice out of pentagons.

When it comes to glass, Frank thought, there is a competition between crystal formation and pentagons that prevents the construction of a crystal.

If you cool a liquid down and it makes a lot of pentagons and the pentagons survive, the crystal cannot form.

It turns out that Frank was right, Royall said, and his team proved this experimentally.

You can't watch what happens to atoms as they cool because they are too small, so Royall and his colleagues used special particles called colloids that mimic atoms, but are large enough to be visible using state-of-the-art microscopy.

The team cooled some down and watched what happened.

What they found was that the gel these particles formed also "wants" to be a crystal, but it fails to become one due to the formation of icosahedra-like structures — exactly as Frank had predicted.

"It is the formation of these structures that underlie jammed materials and explains why a glass is a glass and not a liquid — or a solid," Royall said.

The findings are detailed in the June 22 issue of the journal Nature Materials. The research was supported in part by a grant from Britain's Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology as well as the Royal Society.

Preventing jetliner disasters

Knowing the structure formed by atoms as a glass cools represents a major breakthrough in the understanding of meta-stable materials and will allow further development of new strong yet light materials called metallic glasses, Royall said, which is already used to make some golf clubs.

This stuff is generally shiny black in color, not transparent, due to having a lot of free electrons (think of mercury in an old thermometer).

Metals normally crystallize when they cool, but stress builds up along the boundaries between crystals, which can lead to metal failure.

For example, the world's first jetliner, the British built De Havilland Comet, fell out of the sky due to metal failure.

When metals are be made to cool with the same internal structure as a glass and without crystal grain boundaries, they are less likely to fail, Royall said.

Metallic glasses could be suitable for a whole range of products beyond golf clubs that need to be flexible such as aircraft wings and engine parts, he said.

Glass is not what it seems

Royall is part of a group of scientists who think that if you wait long enough, perhaps billions of years, all glass will eventually crystallize into a true solid.

In other words, glass is not in an equilibrium state, he believes, although it appears that way to us during our limited lifetimes.

"This is not universally accepted," Royall told LiveScience. "Our work will go some way to making that point more accepted. I think there is a growing weight of evidence that certainly many glasses 'want' to be a crystal."

Still, glass "looks like a liquid and this is one of the great riddles that we have gone some way to solving," Royall said. "It has always been thought that glass has same structure as a liquid, and that's why it looks like it. It does not have same structure as liquid."


I never knew glass had such crazy properties.  It'll be interesting to see what they can do with this new-found knowledge!


-b0b
(...dang it, where did I park that invisible car?!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #384 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 4:28pm
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Chemists have always known (well at least in the past 100 years) that glass acts like a solid and a liquid.  Come on engineers...pay attention!

Quote:
The finding could lead to aircraft that look like Wonder Woman's plane.


These people have no clue what they're talking about...Wonder Woman's plane was invisible...DUH!

X
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #385 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 5:06pm
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X wrote on Jun 25th, 2008 at 4:28pm:
Chemists have always known (well at least in the past 100 years) that glass acts like a solid and a liquid.  Come on engineers...pay attention!


That's why I'm a network engineer, and not a real, actual, certified engineer engineer!

-b0b
(...is more of an analyst, actually.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #386 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 5:09pm
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(...is more of an analyst, actually.)



I bet you are bob...
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #387 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 5:12pm
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Get back to work!


-b0b
(...cracks the whip.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #388 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 9:49am
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Quote:
Fossil Find Reveals Evolution Clues
By SETH BORENSTEIN,
AP
Posted: 2008-06-25 20:36:31
Filed Under: Science News
WASHINGTON (June 25) - Scientists unearthed a skull of the most primitive four-legged creature in Earth's history, which should help them better understand the evolution of fish to advanced animals that walk on land.

The 365 million-year-old fossil skull, shoulders and part of the pelvis of the water-dweller, Ventastega curonica, were found in Latvia, researchers report in a study published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. Even though Ventastega is likely an evolutionary dead-end, the finding sheds new details on the evolutionary transition from fish to tetrapods. Tetrapods are animals with four limbs and include such descendants as amphibians, birds and mammals.

While an earlier discovery found a slightly older animal that was more fish than tetrapod, Ventastega is more tetrapod than fish. The fierce-looking creature probably swam through shallow brackish waters, measured about three or four feet long and ate other fish. It likely had stubby limbs with an unknown number of digits, scientists said.

"If you saw it from a distance, it would look like a small alligator, but if you look closer you would find a fin in the back," said lead author Per Ahlberg, a professor of evolutionary biology at Uppsala University in Sweden. "I imagine this is an animal that could haul itself over sand banks without any difficulty. Maybe it's poking around in semi-tidal creeks picking up fish that got stranded."

This all happened more than 100 million years before the first dinosaurs roamed Earth.

Scientists don't think four-legged creatures are directly evolved from Ventastega. It's more likely that in the family tree of tetrapods, Ventastega is an offshoot branch that eventually died off, not leading to the animals we now know, Ahlberg said.

"At the time there were a lot of creatures around of varying degrees of advancement," Ahlberg said. They all seem to have similar characteristics, so Ventastega's find is helpful for evolutionary biologists.

Ventastega is the most primitive of these transition animals, but there are older ones that are oddly more advanced, said Neil Shubin, professor of biology and anatomy at the University of Chicago, who was not part of the discovery team but helped find Tiktaalik, the fish that was one step earlier in evolution.

"It's sort of out of sequence in timing," Shubin said of Ventastega.

Ahlberg didn't find the legs or toes of Ventastega, but was able to deduce that it was four-limbed because key parts of its pelvis and its shoulders were found. From the shape of those structures, scientists were able to conclude that limbs, not fins were attached to Ventastega.

One question that scientists are trying to figure out is why fish started to develop what would later become legs.

Edward Daeschler, associate curator of vertebrate zoology at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia, theorizes that the water was so shallow that critters like Ventastega had an evolutionary advantage by walking instead of swimming.



So some folks find a skull and somehow scientists can determine that it had four legs?  Explain that one to me.

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #389 - Jun 26th, 2008 at 9:59am
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It had a skull and four legs and was alive before me??  Well that right there proves evolution.  That thing might be my great great grandpa!


...in the words of South Park, "I am not a damned retarded fish-frog baby!"
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #390 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 12:38pm
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Dallas County meeting turns racial
5:34 PM Mon, Jul 07, 2008
Kevin Krause

A special meeting about Dallas County traffic tickets turned tense and bizarre this afternoon.

County commissioners were discussing problems with the central collections office that is used to process traffic ticket payments and handle other paperwork normally done by the JP Courts.

Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

Commissioner John Wiley Price, who is black, interrupted him with a loud "Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

Mayfield shot back that it was a figure of speech and a science term. A black hole, according to Webster's, is perhaps "the invisible remains of a collapsed star, with an intense gravitational field from which neither light nor matter can escape."

Other county officials quickly interceded to break it up and get the meeting back on track. TV news cameras were rolling, after all.


The stupidity is just staggering... truly!

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #391 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 1:06pm
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Silly crackers.  You get them thinking they said something racist and you won the argument.


/race card
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #392 - Aug 22nd, 2008 at 9:42am
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Quote:
World heading towards cooler 2008
By Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News website


This year appears set to be the coolest globally this century.

Data from the UK Met Office shows that temperatures in the first half of the year have been more than 0.1 Celsius cooler than any year since 2000.

The principal reason is La Nina, part of the natural cycle that also includes El Nino, which cools the globe.

Even so, 2008 is set to be about the 10th warmest year since 1850, and Met Office scientists say temperatures will rise again as La Nina conditions ease.

     
TEMPERATURES - KEY FACTS
Temperatures given as variations from 1961-1990 average
Warmest on record - 1998 - +0.515C
Coldest on record - 1862 - -0.616C
From 2001 to 2007, varied between +0.400 and +0.479C
2008 January to June - +0.281C
Data from Hadley Centre

"The big thing that's been happening this year is La Nina, which has lowered global temperatures somewhat," said John Kennedy, climate monitoring and research scientist at the Met Office's Hadley Centre.

"La Nina has faded in the last couple of months and now we have neutral conditions in the Pacific," he told BBC News.

Scientists at the World Meteorological Organization have also suggested that 2008 will turn out to be cooler than the last few years.

Breaking the ice

La Nina cools waters in the eastern Pacific Ocean, but its effects are felt around the globe.

It is one of a number of natural climatic cycles that can re-inforce or counteract the warming trend stemming from increased levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
     
LA NINA EXPLAINED
La Nina 2008 Forecast (Source: UK Met Office Hadley Centre)
La Nina translates from the Spanish as "The Child Girl"
Refers to the extensive cooling of the central and eastern Pacific
Increased sea temperatures in the western Pacific mean the atmosphere has more energy, and frequency of heavy rain and thunderstorms is increased
Typically lasts for up to 12 months and generally less damaging event than the stronger El Nino

More on La Nina and El Nino

Earlier this year, one group of researchers suggested that another natural cycle, the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, was likely to hold temperatures steady for about the next decade, before reversing direction and allowing a renewed warming.

"The principal thing is to look at the long-term trend," said Dr Kennedy.

"2008 will still be significantly above the long-term average. There's been a strong upward trend in the last few decades, and that's the thing to focus on."

One of the starkest effects of rising temperatures has been the rapid loss of summer Arctic sea ice, which has accelerated since the year 2000.

Earlier in the year, there were indications that 2008 could see even more ice lost than in the record-breaking melt of 2007.

Currently, the ice appears to be holding together better than a year ago, although scientists are wary as much of it is relatively fragile ice that formed in a single winter.

Canadian authorities have just declared that the Northwest Passage is "navigable", though acknowledging that some parts of it still contain floating ice.



You guys had better stock up on battery-heated underwear and wool sweaters, we've got a heapin' helpin' of global warming on the way!


-b0b
(...can already hear the ridiculous responses from the scientific community.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #393 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 3:31pm
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http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/10/20/lorne-gu...

Quote:
In early September, I began noticing a string of news stories about scientists rejecting the orthodoxy on global warming. Actually, it was more like a string of guest columns and long letters to the editor since it is hard for skeptical scientists to get published in the cabal of climate journals now controlled by the Great Sanhedrin of the environmental movement.

Still, the number of climate change skeptics is growing rapidly. Because a funny thing is happening to global temperatures -- they're going down, not up.


Quote:
An analytical chemist who works in spectroscopy and atmospheric sensing, Michael J. Myers of Hilton Head, S. C., declared, "Man-made global warming is junk science," explaining that worldwide manmade CO2 emission each year "equals about 0.0168% of the atmosphere's CO2 concentration ... This results in a 0.00064% increase in the absorption of the sun's radiation. This is an insignificantly small number."


Quote:
Other international scientists have called the manmade warming theory a "hoax," a "fraud" and simply "not credible."

While not stooping to such name-calling, weather-satellite scientists David Douglass of the University of Rochester and John Christy of the University of Alabama at Huntsville nonetheless dealt the True Believers a devastating blow last month.

For nearly 30 years, Professor Christy has been in charge of NASA's eight weather satellites that take more than 300,000 temperature readings daily around the globe. In a paper co-written with Dr. Douglass, he concludes that while manmade emissions may be having a slight impact, "variations in global temperatures since 1978 ... cannot be attributed to carbon dioxide."

Moreover, while the chart below was not produced by Douglass and Christy, it was produced using their data and it clearly shows that in the past four years -- the period corresponding to reduced solar activity -- all of the rise in global temperatures since 1979 has disappeared.


http://www.nationalpost.com/893554.bin

fun article
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #394 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 6:29pm
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I can't wait to see what Al Gore & Friends pull out of their butt to refute this interesting article.

-b0b
(...probably shouldn't have bought so many carbon credits.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #395 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 3:53pm
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I got this tidbit in a daily ACM e-mail.  I thought you guys might like it...

Quote:
Robotic Ants Building Homes on Mars?
ICT Results (10/21/08)

The European Union-funded I-SWARM project is developing swarms of ant-sized robots that are able to reconfigure themselves and autonomously assemble into larger robots to perform difficult tasks. Planet exploration and colonization are just a few of the possible applications that swarm robots could perform, says Marc Szymanski, a robotics researcher at Germany's University of Karlsruhe, who is working on the project. Szymanski says small robots capable of working together could be used to explore Mars and even start building structures. He says that robots' ability to work together and adjust their responsibilities based on the obstacles they face, such as changes in the environment or the swarm's needs, makes them extremely versatile. Swarm robots could explore space or the deep ocean, perform repairs inside machinery, clean up pollution, or perform tests and provide treatment inside the human body. Deploying swarm robots for use in the real world is still a ways off, but the I-SWARM team did succeed in building robots that come close to resembling a programmable ant. The I-SWARM robots are able to communicate with each other and sense their environment, creating a type of collective perception. The robots use infrared to signal each other until the entire swarm has been informed.


Gray goo, anyone?

-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #396 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 5:40pm
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Someone has read the Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson. Thats how they assembled the initial colonies on mars. Tiny robots assembled into larger and so forth. good books.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #397 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 8:57am
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Replicators!!!

Actually I was googling "stargate robots" to figure out what those things were called and found an article that said stargate inspired this very concept.  It shows a cool little picture of how these robots try to make their way over an obstacle.

http://www.robotliving.com/wp-content/uploads/symbrion2.jpg
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #398 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 11:11am
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And that's why we need to bring back SG-1, Farscape, and Firefly...*shifty eyes*

X
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #399 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 3:00pm
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Farscape yes, forever.

SG-1 and Firelfy I'm ok without...they ended well.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #400 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 4:08pm
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The_Fat_Man wrote on Oct 23rd, 2008 at 3:00pm:
...Firelfy I'm ok without...they ended well.


You take that back right now, you filthy hippy!

-b0b
(...Firefly FTW!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #401 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 11:11am
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I'm right, you're wrong. Get over it lamer.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #402 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 4:19pm
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If you could kick people through TCP/IP, I'd dropkick you so hard that your nuts would have a permanent static IP.


-b0b
(...bring back Firefly!)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #403 - Nov 8th, 2008 at 9:19pm
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los...

mini nuclear reactors power 20k homes.


this is the way to go!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #404 - Nov 8th, 2008 at 9:22pm
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This mini-reactor trend is easily the coolest thing since flying cars.  I first read about these acouple years ago in Popular Science, where they were talking about "neighborhood-sized" reactors that would service 15-20 houses and take up no more space than a mini-fridge.  I thought they wer still 15-20 years out, so this is really exciting news!


-b0b
(...will need one of his own some day.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #405 - Dec 12th, 2008 at 4:08pm
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D951C5IG0&show_article=1

Quote:
British archaeologists have unearthed an ancient skull carrying a startling surprise—an unusually well-preserved brain. Scientists said Friday that the mass of gray matter was more than 2,000 years old—the oldest ever discovered in Britain. One expert unconnected with the find called it "a real freak of preservation."

The existence of a brain where no other soft tissues have survived is extremely rare, according to Sonia O'Connor, an archaeological researcher at the University of Bradford in northern England who helped authenticate the discovery.

"It's a real freak of preservation to have a brain and nothing else," Gosden said. "The fact that there's any brain there at all is quite amazing."


So. They are amazed when they find tissue from 2000 years ago. That's cool.

How is it that when they find some T-rex tissue from '65 MILLION years ago' they aren't saying "OMFG THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!!"

Because it is impossible. Because T-rex's aren't from 65 million years ago. And because you can't see you have more faith in a buncha rocks than "religious" people have in God.

  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #406 - Dec 12th, 2008 at 4:39pm
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I swear, these guys do everything in their power to avoid connecting the proverbial dots.

-b0b
(...thinks Wes's mom is a "real freak of preservation.")
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #407 - Dec 12th, 2008 at 6:15pm
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...thinks Wes's mom is a "real freak of preservation."


Not really.  I mean anything that eats that many twinkies is going to last.
  
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Reply #408 - Jan 5th, 2009 at 1:25pm
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You guys are douchebags.....seriously
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #409 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:30pm
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http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/38574742.html
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The key players are now all in place in Washington and in state governments across America to officially label carbon dioxide as a pollutant and enact laws that tax we citizens for our carbon footprints. Only two details stand in the way, the faltering economic times and a dramatic turn toward a colder climate. The last two bitter winters have lead to a rise in public awareness that CO2 is not a pollutant and is not a significant greenhouse gas that is triggering runaway global warming.

How did we ever get to this point where bad science is driving big government we have to struggle so to stop it?


another excellent article from the founder of the weather channel outlining the history of the global warming scare.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #410 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 2:55pm
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Didn't you get the memo?  It's no longer "global warming," but "global climate change."  Any time the weather gets nasty (too hot, too cold, too rainy, etc.) we can now blame it on greenhouse gases, regardless of the obvious contradiction that may cause.


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Reply #411 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 8:10pm
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I stopped even paying attention to global warming and all of its other fancy names a long time ago.

I won't sit here and say that all the shit we pump into the atmosphere and such isn't doing SOMETHING.  But I don't think its going to cause the entire earth to warm to a point where the shit hits the fan =p
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #412 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:51am
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Vatican endorses Darwin, slights intelligent design
Creationism is a cultural phenomenon - like Paris Hilton
By Joe Fay, 11th February 2009 13:02 GMT


The Vatican gave the Creationist lobby a left right sign of the cross today, announcing it would stage a conference on Darwinism next month and declaring that it was one of the Fathers of the Church that thought up the idea in the first place.

At one point the conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University wasn't going to give Creationism or Intelligent Design a hearing at all. But apparently the organisers have relented, and will consider Intelligent Design as a "cultural phenomenon" rather than as a valid scientific theory, giving US-based IDers the chance to be smirked at by a room full of Monseigneurs, Cardinals and Bishops.

Previewing the conference yesterday, Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Church's Pontifical Council for Culture, conceded the Church had been hostile to Darwin on occasion. But, he said, the Church had never formally condemned Darwin, and he noted that in the last 50 years a number of Popes had accepted evolution as a valid scientific approach to human development.

Indeed, he said, evolution could be traced back through Scholastics such as St Thomas Aquinas to St Augustine in the fourth century, who had noted that "big fish eat smaller fish".

Augustine is probably more famous for praying "God, make me good - but not yet." Which also has some evolutionary overtones if you think about it.

Marc Leclerc, a natural philosopher at the University went further, saying Creationists were mistaken in arguing that that Darwinism was "totally incompatible with a religious vision of reality".

The conference, and the Church's endorsement of Darwin, represents another curve ball from the Holy See at other, arguably more fundamentalist, streams of Christianity. In December Pope Benedict tipped his hat to Galileo - who definitely was condemned by the Church - while simultaneously going all New Age by blethering on about the Solstice.

Last May, the Vatican astronomer really went out on a limb, claiming there was nothing incompatible between being a Catholic and believing in Aliens. He even suggested Aliens could be free of the stain of original sin, the stubborn blemish that has condemned humanity to a progressive decline from the Garden of Eden, through slavery, the dark ages, religious strife, atomic war, and now, the credit crunch and Simon Cowell.

But a wholesale worldview rejig this is not. Other branches of modern science get shorter shrift, with genetic manipulation fairly high on the Vatican's current don't-like list.


Leave it up to the Catholic church to come up with this kind of asshattery.  All Christians, Catholics included, should consider this an insult and an attack on the basic tenets of their faith.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #413 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 9:13pm
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I've yet to see a good theory on where humans came from.

Evolution is troublesome because of its complete lack of transitory fossils, and creationists have nothing to back there ideas except "it says so in the bible".

Someday someone will figure out the real cause of our existence, and I'll be looking forward to it.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #414 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 11:51am
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eh, evolution has more critical problems than transitional fossils, many of which are solved by a good understanding of biblical creation. 

Dismissing God's Word on a seemingly arbitrary whim doesn't make sense.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #415 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 1:22pm
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I'll grab the popcorn.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #416 - Feb 14th, 2009 at 6:57pm
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I don't dismiss God's Word on a whim Smiley

If you can offer me any concrete proof that man was created by God I'd love to hear it.  Spouting scripture doesn't do it for me.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #417 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:53pm
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1. Man was created by naturalistic evolution or by (a) God.  E v G
2. Evolution cannot work according to information theory and irreducible complexity.  ~E
3.  Therefore man was created by (a) God.   ∴ G


...?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #418 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 5:01pm
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haha i love my brother.  Grin
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #419 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:35pm
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Just because Evolution is obviously wrong does not make Creation correct by default.

That's the kind of backwards logic that has held man back for hundreds of years.

"Well we can't sail across the sea, so obviously there is not other side of the sea!"

"Well the sun moves across the sky, so Earth HAS to be the center of the Universe"

-----------------------

You offered me no proof, just more nonsense.  And that is my problem with Creationism.  I can write a book and say I created the world and man too, doesn't mean I did.
  
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Reply #420 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:20am
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I am going to use some scripture because the Bible is the foundation of the creation argument. The logical choice between creation and other worldviews depends on which one makes sense of the evidence.  Forcing the Bible out of the argument is like forcing an evolutionist to discard the mechanism of natural selection.

Quote:
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. 1 Cor 3:19


There is no reason to think that we can discover all truth through human reasoning.  But we do know that the Bible agrees with what we understand in the world.  Do you disagree with me on this?

Quote:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. - Romans 1:20


What proof would you accept?

If you are claiming that creation is wrong simply because a different way might exist (without even considering its validity!) then you are dismissing God's Word on a whim.  right?




  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #421 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 3:05pm
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Like I said, I'm not dismissing God's word on a whim.

I'm dismissing it for the same reason I dismiss evolution.  THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

I'm not saying God DIDN'T create the world, I'd just like to see some proof.  My mind doesn't work like yours, when someone says "If I drop this ball its going to fall to the ground."  I ask them to drop it and show me the proof.

I've never seen any concrete proof that God didn't create the world, but lack of evidence against does not prove a theory correct.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #422 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 3:46pm
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Noah's Flood  -  rock layers
Adam & Eve - genetic variability and rapid accumulation of mutations (relativity short time ago)
Existence of God - Consistency of natural laws

Its technically right to say that science can only disprove things.  It's an important part of the scientific method, otherwise you would always be "affirming the consequent".  You could accurately say that there are no proven theories in science, only ones that haven't been falsified yet. 

Maybe you could give an example of something that would be proof?

  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #423 - Feb 20th, 2009 at 1:33pm
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You can use science to prove theories, not sure what you are talking about.

For example, if I say Substance A will dissolve Substance B, and I pour A on B and it dissolves.  Then I just proved my theory.

Granted that was a pretty basic statement.  I guess the proof I want is something I can see for myself.

My main problem with Creation is that there really isn't any way to prove it unless I can walk up and MEET this supreme being that supposedly magically created the world and see him do the likes again.

That is my problem with blind faith.  It's just a way for humans to cope with the fact that sooner or later we die and that is the end.  The rest of religion is just a way for the Church to justify God's supreme power so that they can create the spin they need to keep power.

I'd say it as likely that Aliens created the Earth and life on it as it is that "God" did.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #424 - Feb 20th, 2009 at 4:39pm
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This point isn't really the crux of the issue but, logically...

Affirming the consequent
If p then q (p⊃q)
q is true (q)
Therefore p  (∴ p)

An example might help.
If I eat a whole pizza, then I will be full
I am full
Therefore I ate a whole pizza. (obviously false)

But, your analogy doesn't work, because it is missing a theory and has no reason for its prediction. 

I think A will dissolve B
A dissolves B
Therefore, I am right? (about what?)

Supposing you have a theory that A and B are both comprised of polar molecules, so that B is dissolved, then you have evidence to support that.  But, you haven't proved anything, because the same result would occur if they were both non-polar, or if one or both of them was a detergent.  This is the error of "affirming the consequent" (assuming an affirmed prediction as proof). Historical science, which is not repeatable for observation, is especially problematic. 

If you are saying that you only believe things that you can see, then obviously major problems arise.  An obvious one is responding to people on a forum, you don't see them, why bother. (Luke 16:27-31)

I don't know why you say faith is only a way for humans to cope with death.  For someone who says evolution isn't true, you have taken a page right out of the their book. 

Also, you use the term, God's supreme power, in a way to assume that it exists, and that people spin it.  I am confused, does God have supreme power or not?

I've given several unrebutted examples for evidence for the truth of God's Word, why would you say aliens are just as likely, when there is no evidence for aliens?

Faith in agnosticism is just as blind as others, I think...
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #425 - Feb 21st, 2009 at 1:52am
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I don't know what you're going on about polar molecules and shit for, I have no idea what you are speaking of, it was a basic example of proof, not an actual hypothesis =p

I don't see how taking a stance against Creationism makes me pro-Evolution.  I'm simply stating I think man has no idea how they came about, and are making random stabs in the dark and leaps of faith to explain it.

I haven't seen any evidence of Creationism listed.  You stated such things as geological strata lairs. This simply points towards the Earth not being 5 billion (Or whatever it is) years old, it doesn't prove God created it, and to assume so is again, a leap of faith.  Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.

And to answer you're question, if God does exist, I don't think he has supreme power no.

At least I would hope he doesn't.  An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.

My biggest problem with Creationism is this.  Let's just say God DID create all that exists.  Why?  What reason would he have to do so.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #426 - Feb 21st, 2009 at 12:50pm
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Quote:
I don't see how taking a stance against Creationism makes me pro-Evolution.


It is a proven fact that Creationism and Evolution are the only two possible theories.  If you try and think of a third you would be a retard and should be shot.  Are you a retard?

Quote:
An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.


A great quote from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, "God didn't do that, you did!"  That is exactly how I feel.  People do horrible things, take responsibility and don't say well God (or the devil) made me do it.

I am going to take heat for this...but I really think churches are trying for power, God just wants you to live a good life.  To me there is a very big difference between God's word and the churches word.

Quote:
Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.


Wes has a point.  If you went though the trouble of making the earth wouldn't you sign it?

Quote:
Let's just say God DID create all that exists.  Why?  What reason would he have to do so.


You never wanted an ant farm?
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #427 - Feb 21st, 2009 at 3:21pm
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The_Fat_Man wrote on Feb 21st, 2009 at 1:52am:
...if God does exist, I don't think he has supreme power no.

At least I would hope he doesn't.  An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.



Here's a story I heard long ago that seemed to sum up my belief on the subject...

Quote:
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.  As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.  They talked about so many things and various subjects:

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:  “I don’t believe that God exists.”

“Why do you say that?” asked the customer.

“Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist.  Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?  Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.  I can’t imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.  Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.  He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: “You know what? Barbers do not exist.”

“How can you say that?” asked the surprised barber.  “I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!”

“No!” the customer exclaimed.  “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.”

“Ah, but barbers DO exist! That’s what happens when people do not come to me.”

“Exactly!” affirmed the customer.


God gave us a characteristic that differentiates us from every other creature in existence: free will.  If he stepped in and protected us from one another or from the consequences of our own sin, that would defeat the purpose in bestowing us with that incredible trait.

Free will is not only our most defining characteristic, but it is also the trait that endears us most to God.  He could have created automatons that would simply serve him because they were "programmed" to do so, but would that really bring him any glory?  Of course not.  He is glorified when we choose to serve him.

Now that I'm married, I've discovered a new outlook on the situation.  It has become almost habitual for me to tell my wife that I love her, and the words themselves don't have the same impact they once did.  If it is automatic, it is meaningless.  However, from time to time I'll sacrifice something I want for something she wants (time, money, whatever) because I love her so very much.  That has an impact, because it is done out of love and sacrifice, not out of habit.

Make any sense?


-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #428 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:48am
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A child has free will too.

But if he goes over and stabs another kid in the eye with an ink pen, I'd beat his ass for it.

I wouldn't sit back and say, "Well, he choose that path, if he wanted to know better he'd have asked me first.  Oh well."
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #429 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 2:18pm
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Maybe we should open a theology thread Smiley

Quote:
I don't know what you're going on about polar molecules and shit for, I have no idea what you are speaking of, it was a basic example of proof, not an actual hypothesis =p


Well, I was saying that since you didn't make a hypothesis, you didn't prove anything in your example.   (Polarity determines which things dissolve. Similar polarities will dissolve. For example, oil is nonpolar and water is polar, so they don't mix.)

Quote:
I haven't seen any evidence of Creationism listed.  You stated such things as geological strata lairs. This simply points towards the Earth not being 5 billion (Or whatever it is) years old, it doesn't prove God created it, and to assume so is again, a leap of faith.  Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.


The couple things I mentioned are important because they are evidences predicted by the Bible.  If I have a hypothesis that a giant worldwide flood came through here a few thousand years ago and I find rock layers to match my prediction, then I have evidence to support my hypothesis.  You are right, I haven't proved it, because that would be making the error of "affirming the consequent", as I tried to say before.   That is just how the scientific method works. But, since you seem to disregard this type of evidence, I wonder if you can give me any kind of example that you might accept as "proof" that biblical creation is true.. obviously excluding things like writing His name on it or delivering a personal revelation to you.

  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #430 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:38pm
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Ironman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 2:18pm:
Maybe we should open a theology thread Smiley


Be our guest!

By the way, congratulations on your 100th post. It only took you 3½ years!


-b0b
(...hopes you'll aspire to his level of post-whoredom someday.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #431 - Jun 14th, 2009 at 2:56pm
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Argentine glacier advances despite global warming

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090614/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_argentina_glacier

Argentina's Perito Moreno glacier is one of only a few ice fields worldwide that have withstood rising global temperatures.

Nourished by Andean snowmelt, the glacier constantly grows even as it spawns icebergs the size of apartment buildings into a frigid lake, maintaining a nearly perfect equilibrium since measurements began more than a century ago.

"We're not sure why this happens," said Andres Rivera, a glacialist with the Center for Scientific Studies in Valdivia, Chile. "But not all glaciers respond equally to climate change."
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #432 - Jun 14th, 2009 at 10:09pm
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Ice + Hot = Water....ALWAYS!

Ice+Water+Cold = More Ice....Usually...OH MY SCIENCE!!!


GLOBAL COOLING HAS BEGUN!

*kneels in the sand and pound it with my fist...snot bubbling from my nostrils, tears streaming down my face*

You did it...you bastards....you killed global warming!

X
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #433 - Jun 15th, 2009 at 6:13am
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Remember, it's not global warming anymore!  It's global climate change!

More ice is a sign of climate change, which is proof of the greenhouse effect... or something!


-b0b
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #434 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:24pm
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....Someone tell me how lawmakers can vote on something when they havent even read the entire bill. comon now democracy, dont give up just yet!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #435 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 3:24am
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But you can just judge a bill based on the title...like the USA PATRIOT ACT...I'm a Patriot...so it must be good!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #436 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 7:43am
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MediaMaster wrote on Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:24pm:
....Someone tell me how lawmakers can vote on something when they havent even read the entire bill.


Don't be so harsh on them.  Nobody told them they'd have to read when they ran for office!  What is this, Hooked on Phonics?


-b0b
(...doles out the harshness.)
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #437 - Jul 20th, 2009 at 12:59pm
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Quote:
The 10-year-old who helped Apollo 11, 40 years later
By Rachel Rodriguez


(CNN) -- On July 23, 1969, as Apollo 11 hurtled back towards Earth, there was a problem -- a problem only a kid could solve.

It sounds like something out of a movie, but that's what it came down to as Apollo 11 sped back towards Earth after landing on the moon in 1969.

It was around 10:00 at night on July 23, and 10-year-old Greg Force was at home with his mom and three brothers. His father, Charles Force, was at work. Charles Force was the director of the NASA tracking station in Guam, where the family was living.

The Guam tracking station was to play a critical role in the return of Apollo 11 to Earth. A powerful antenna there connected NASA communications with Apollo 11, and the antenna was the only way for NASA to make its last communications with the astronauts before splashdown. But at the last minute on that night, a bearing in the antenna failed, rendering it nearly useless.

To properly replace the bearing would have required dismantling the entire antenna, and there was simply no time. So Charles Force thought of a creative solution: If he could get more grease around the failed bearing, it would probably be fine. The only problem was, nobody at the station had an arm small enough to actually reach in through the two-and-a-half inch opening and pack grease around the bearing.

And that's when Greg was called in to save the day. Charles Force sent someone out to his home to pick up Greg. Once at the tracking station, Greg reached into the tiny hole and packed grease around the failed bearing. It worked, and the station was able to successfully complete its communications role in the mission. Apollo 11 splashed down safely the next day.

At the time, Greg didn't think what he was doing was a big deal, and 40 years later, he's still modest about his role in the mission.

"That's all I did, was put my hand in and put grease on it," he says. If he hadn't been there, NASA would not have been able to make its last communications with the mission before splashdown, but Greg says "it wasn't life or death, [from] my understanding."

"My dad explained to me why it was important," he says, "but it kind of caught me by surprise afterwards, all the attention." iReport.com: Read Greg's firsthand account

That attention came from the media and even the astronauts themselves. Greg's small but important part in Apollo 11 was a story told by news outlets around the world. He even got a nice thank-you note from Neil Armstrong, whom he met when Armstrong went on a tour of NASA stations with the other astronauts to thank the staff after the mission. "To Greg," reads the note, which Armstrong wrote on a newspaper clipping of Greg's story, "with thanks for your help on Apollo 11. Neil Armstrong."

Perhaps not surprisingly, like many other kids who grew up during the Apollo era, Greg dreamed of becoming an astronaut. He says he remembers visiting his dad's office to listen to astronauts communicating with NASA officials on the ground.

"We could sit and listen to the actual communication with the astronauts as it was happening, and it was hard to understand, but I loved to do that," he says. "On Guam we didn't have good television coverage, so I think I listened to the [moon] landing on the radio. To me it was a huge thing."

Greg pursued his dreams of space exploration all the way through college, where he majored in physics. Unfortunately, he was unable to pass the vision test for the space program because of his colorblindness, but even that couldn't squelch his interest. Greg went on to get his pilot's license, and even though his career now as a gymnastics school owner isn't exactly space-related, he says that "ever since then, I've followed the space program."

And as a lover of space exploration, Greg hopes to see more missions to the moon.

"I think it would be an important step as far as going further, like to Mars," he says. "I would love to see us go back to the moon."

But for now, on the 40th anniversary of the moon landing, he can remember the small but crucial role he played in bringing Apollo 11 home safely.

"It kind of caught me by surprise," he says, "but I'm real proud to have been even a little tiny part of it."


Somehow, I've managed to completely miss this story over the years.  This kid missed his calling, though.  He definitely should've been a hacker!


-b0b
(...verah cool!)
  

GForce.jpg (Attachment deleted)

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #438 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 9:52am
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #439 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 12:24pm
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Get ready for zombies!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #440 - Jul 26th, 2009 at 6:41pm
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Yes, just what China needs...more mice!
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #441 - Jul 27th, 2009 at 6:12am
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X wrote on Jul 26th, 2009 at 6:41pm:
Yes, just what China needs...more mice!


They have to replace all of the ones that get shipped over here somehow.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #442 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 8:44am
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http://www.ptinews.com/news/256707_Mobile-towers-threatening-honey-bees-in-Keral...

Quote:
Mobile towers are posing a threat to honey bees in Kerala withe electromagnetic radiation from mobile towers and cell phones having the potential to kill worker bees that go out to collect nectar from flowers, says a study.

A plunge in beehive population has been reported from different parts of Kerala and if measures are not taken to check mushrooming of mobile powers, bees could be wiped out from Kerala within a decade, environmentalist and Reader in Zoology, Dr Sainudeen Pattazhy says in his study.

In one of his experiments he found that when a mobile phone was kept near a beehive it resulted in collapse of the colony in five to 10 days, with the worker bees failing to return home, leaving the hives with just queens, eggs and hive-bound immature bees.


if true, it would help explain the 30-70% drop in bee population in the US and britain. they better figure something out because bees are sort of essential to our way of life. pretty much any fruit and a few other plants are fertilized by bees.
  

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #443 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 11:51am
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I'm sorry but we've had cell phones for about 20 years now and I think if there's something that puts out radiation it would be the old field like phones.  I'm just wondering what kind of radiation they're thinking it is.  Also, is it really a good experiment to just put a cell phone by a hive?  Seems like a bad experiment to me.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #444 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 4:37pm
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I don't know pat, if you used controls you could get a decent hypothesis from it.

Say for instance put an active cell phone near one hive, nothing next to another hive, and the shell of an empty cell phone (no battery or anything) next to another and watch and see.

If the Hive near the cell phone dies off rather quickly than you at least have something to base the argument on.
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #445 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 5:39pm
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I was under the impression that Colony Collapse Disorder had been conclusively linked to forced migration (and, subsequently, exhaustion), not cell phones?


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #446 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 5:50pm
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No idea, does anyone actually give a flying fuck? =p
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #447 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 9:01pm
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The bees do.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #448 - Oct 22nd, 2009 at 10:06am
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Primate fossil called only a distant relative
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Delicious Digg Facebook Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Twitter Yahoo! Bookmarks Print  AP – FILE -- A May 19, 2009 file photo shows Dr. Jorn Hurum speaking to reporters as a photo of 'Ida', the …
Slideshow:Dinosaurs and Fossils By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer Malcolm Ritter, Ap Science Writer – Wed Oct 21, 5:09 pm ET
NEW YORK – Remember Ida, the fossil discovery announced last May with its own book and TV documentary? A publicity blitz called it "the link" that would reveal the earliest evolutionary roots of monkeys, apes and humans. Experts protested that Ida wasn't even a close relative. And now a new analysis supports their reaction.

In fact, Ida is as far removed from the monkey-ape-human ancestry as a primate could be, says Erik Seiffert of Stony Brook University in New York.

He and his colleagues compared 360 specific anatomical features of 117 living and extinct primate species to draw up a family tree. They report the results in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

Ida is a skeleton of a 47 million-year-old cat-sized creature found in Germany. It starred in a book, "The Link: Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor."

Ida represents a previously unknown primate species called Darwinius. The scientists who formally announced the finding said they weren't claiming Darwinius was a direct ancestor of monkeys, apes and humans. But they did argue that it belongs in the same major evolutionary grouping, and that it showed what an actual ancestor of that era might have looked like.

The new analysis says Darwinius does not belong in the same primate category as monkeys, apes and humans. Instead, the analysis concluded, it falls into the other major grouping, which includes lemurs.

Experts agreed.

"This is a rigorous analysis based on many features," said Eric Sargis, an anthropology professor at Yale. He said he'd found the argument of the Darwinius researchers unconvincing, so the new result came as no surprise.

In fact, it confirms what most scientists think, said David Begun, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Toronto.

Jorn Hurum of the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway, an author of the Ida paper, said he welcomed the new analysis.

Darwinius is an example of a group of primates called adapoids, and "we are happy to start the scientific discussion" about what Ida means for where adapoids fit on the primate family tree, he wrote in an e-mail.

___

On the Net:

Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature



They are so quick to try and find any piece of evolutionary proof that even their own peers don't agree with them.  This is why science, as of right now, is on the decline.  No one wants to take time to actually do the work.  They want a movie/book deal and try to come up with something to get their name out their and have it be very unique.  Just wait 3 months and whatever news is in science right now will change.

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #449 - Oct 22nd, 2009 at 1:17pm
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It will be interesting to see how quickly this gets swept under the proverbial rug and forgotten about.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #450 - Nov 20th, 2009 at 10:16pm
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Climate researchers at the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit may have intentionally and artificially skewed temperature data in studies


Full story.


Makes driving my car less fun knowing that I might not be killing the planet...
  
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #451 - Nov 21st, 2009 at 9:33am
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Whatever.  My carbon footprint scoffs in disgust at your puny emissions.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #452 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 9:54pm
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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #453 - Jan 31st, 2010 at 8:00pm
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Well that just means the warming is causing dramatic cooling....you know...heat produces cold...err duhhh!

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #454 - Feb 17th, 2010 at 2:43pm
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Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995

By Jonathan Petre

The academic at the centre of the ‘Climategate’ affair, whose raw data is crucial to the theory of climate change, has admitted that he has trouble ‘keeping track’ of the information.

Colleagues say that the reason Professor Phil Jones has refused Freedom of Information requests is that he may have actually lost the relevant papers.

Professor Jones told the BBC yesterday there was truth in the observations of colleagues that he lacked organisational skills, that his office was swamped with piles of paper and that his record keeping is ‘not as good as it should be’.

The data is crucial to the famous ‘hockey stick graph’ used by climate change advocates to support the theory.

Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.

The admissions will be seized on by sceptics as fresh evidence that there are serious flaws at the heart of the science of climate change and the orthodoxy that recent rises in temperature are largely man-made.

Professor Jones has been in the spotlight since he stepped down as director of the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit after the leaking of emails that sceptics claim show scientists were manipulating data.

The raw data, collected from hundreds of weather stations around the world and analysed by his unit, has been used for years to bolster efforts by the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to press governments to cut carbon dioxide emissions.

Following the leak of the emails, Professor Jones has been accused of ‘scientific fraud’ for allegedly deliberately suppressing information and refusing to share vital data with critics.

Discussing the interview, the BBC’s environmental analyst Roger Harrabin said he had spoken to colleagues of Professor Jones who had told him that his strengths included integrity and doggedness but not record-keeping and office tidying.

Mr Harrabin, who conducted the interview for the BBC’s website, said the professor had been collating tens of thousands of pieces of data from around the world to produce a coherent record of temperature change.

That material has been used to produce the ‘hockey stick graph’ which is relatively flat for centuries before rising steeply in recent decades.

According to Mr Harrabin, colleagues of Professor Jones said ‘his office is piled high with paper, fragments from over the years, tens of thousands of pieces of paper, and they suspect what happened was he took in the raw data to a central database and then let the pieces of paper go because he never realised that 20 years later he would be held to account over them’.

Asked by Mr Harrabin about these issues, Professor Jones admitted the lack of organisation in the system had contributed to his reluctance to share data with critics, which he regretted.

But he denied he had cheated over the data or unfairly influenced the scientific process, and said he still believed recent temperature rises were predominantly man-made.

Asked about whether he lost track of data, Professor Jones said: ‘There is some truth in that. We do have a trail of where the weather stations have come from but it’s probably not as good as it should be.

‘There’s a continual updating of the dataset. Keeping track of everything is difficult. Some countries will do lots of checking on their data then issue improved data, so it can be very difficult. We have improved but we have to improve more.’

He also agreed that there had been two periods which experienced similar warming, from 1910 to 1940 and from 1975 to 1998, but said these could be explained by natural phenomena whereas more recent warming could not.

He further admitted that in the last 15 years there had been no ‘statistically significant’ warming, although he argued this was a blip rather than the long-term trend.

And he said that the debate over whether the world could have been even warmer than now during the medieval period, when there is evidence of high temperatures in northern countries, was far from settled.

Sceptics believe there is strong evidence that the world was warmer between about 800 and 1300 AD than now because of evidence of high temperatures in northern countries.

But climate change advocates have dismissed this as false or only applying to the northern part of the world.

Professor Jones departed from this consensus when he said: ‘There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not. The MWP is most clearly expressed in parts of North America, the North Atlantic and Europe and parts of Asia.

‘For it to be global in extent, the MWP would need to be seen clearly in more records from the tropical regions and the Southern hemisphere. There are very few palaeoclimatic records for these latter two regions.

‘Of course, if the MWP was shown to be global in extent and as warm or warmer than today, then obviously the late 20th Century warmth would not be unprecedented. On the other hand, if the MWP was global, but was less warm than today, then the current warmth would be unprecedented.’

Sceptics said this was the first time a senior scientist working with the IPCC had admitted to the possibility that the Medieval Warming Period could have been global, and therefore the world could have been hotter then than now.

Professor Jones criticised those who complained he had not shared his data with them, saying they could always collate their own from publicly available material in the US. And he said the climate had not cooled ‘until recently – and then barely at all. The trend is a warming trend’.

Mr Harrabin told Radio 4’s Today programme that, despite the controversies, there still appeared to be no fundamental flaws in the majority scientific view that climate change was largely man-made.

But Dr Benny Pieser, director of the sceptical Global Warming Policy Foundation, said Professor Jones’s ‘excuses’ for his failure to share data were hollow as he had shared it with colleagues and ‘mates’.

He said that until all the data was released, sceptics could not test it to see if it supported the conclusions claimed by climate change advocates.

He added that the professor’s concessions over medieval warming were ‘significant’ because they were his first public admission that the science was not settled.


"Uh, yeah.  Remember how we were so sure that global warming was a sure thing?  Not so much anymore."

Oops.


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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #455 - May 24th, 2010 at 3:41pm
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Now this is how you do science!

  

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