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b0b
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Economic Retardation
Jan 24th, 2008 at 9:39am
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Since I've been posting so many articles related to the economy lately, I thought it'd be prudent to start a thread for articles focused purely on the latest retarded moves by Bernanke, the Fed, and the rest of the .gov related to our country's financial status.


Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_go_co/economy_stimulus

WASHINGTON - House Democratic and Republican leaders are looking for imminent agreement with the White House on an emergency package to jolt the economy out of its slump after negotiators on all sides made significant concessions at a late-night bargaining session.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi agreed to drop increases in food stamp and unemployment benefits during the Wednesday meeting in exchange for gaining a rebates of at least $300 for each person earning a paycheck, including low-income earners who make too little to pay income taxes.

Families with children would receive an additional $300 per child, subject to an overall cap of perhaps $1,200, according to a senior House aide who outlined the deal on condition of anonymity in advance of formal adoption of the whole package.

Pelosi, D-Calif., and House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, had yet to reach agreement on a package of tax breaks for businesses after estimates showed a tentative business tax agreement could exceed $70 billion, far more than had been expected, the aide and a Democratic lobbyist said.

Pelosi and Boehner appeared optimistic as they left their third extended negotiating session of the day with Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. "We'll have more to say tomorrow," Boehner said. "We're hopeful."

However, Pelosi's spokesman said another negotiating session tentatively scheduled for Thursday morning was postponed because the speaker first needed to brief fellow Democrats on the emerging but plan.

Democratic aides said greater GOP flexibility over giving relief to poor families with children — who would not have been eligible under President Bush's original tax rebate proposal — was the catalyst that moved the talks forward.

Asked whether agreement was near, Pelosi said, "We're moving toward that, but all the issues are not resolved."

The business tax portion still being negotiated would give businesses incentives to invest in plants and equipment, give small businesses more generous expensing rules and allow businesses suffering losses now to reclaim taxes previously paid. The last item on spreading operating losses was proving to be unexpectedly expensive.

Pelosi pressed to make sure tax relief would find its way into the hands of lower-income earners while Boehner pushed to include upper middle-class couples with incomes of up to $130,000 or so, according to congressional aides.

Bush backs larger rebates of $800-$1,600, but his plan would have left out 30 million working households who earn paychecks but don't make enough to pay income tax, according to calculations by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. An additional 19 million households would have received only partial rebates under Bush's initial proposal.


Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said negotiators also were near an agreement on an overhaul of the Federal Housing Administration that would make it easier for thousands of homeowners with ballooning interest rates to refinance into federally insured loans. That measure might advance separately of the tax relief package, however.

Both sides agreed to allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — government-sponsored companies that are the two biggest U.S. financers and guarantors of home loans — to buy loans much larger than the current $417,000 limit, aides and lobbyists said. Frank said that lending cap might reach as high as $700,000 in areas with the highest home prices.

Pelosi's decision to drop expanding unemployment payments and more money for food stamps — which many lawmakers had assumed would be included in the package — could prove very controversial with Democratic constituencies such as unions, who were already stung by a decision to deny states more money for their Medicaid programs.

Many Democrats had pressed to extend unemployment benefits for people whose 26 weeks of benefits have run out, but Republicans resisted.


This whole idea of an "economic stimulus package" is pretty retarded.  The government is in crazy debt, but they want to slash taxes and hand out rebates like candy?  I've got a better idea.  Let's slash welfare and other socialist program, pay off the debt, and then slash taxes.  Of course, that would be a responsible fiscal policy, and we can't have that!

Just as a "wow" note, I heard the other day that we would have to stack $1,000 bills over 64 miles high to have enough money to pay off our debt.  How sick and sad is that?

Now, a stimulus package is bad enough, but Pelosi wants to hand out tax rebates to people that don't even pay taxes!  How the hell do you give someone a rebate on something they've never paid in the first place?  At that point, it isn't a rebate, it's a gift - also known as wealth redistribution, also known as socialism.

Tax rebates for anybody while the .gov is running a ~$200 billion deficit is retarded.  $300-$800 isn't going to fix the economy, and Bush wants to increase our deficit another $150 billion for tax rebates?  WTF?

You guys that are single with no kids and pay in 30% of your income to the .gov will get a $300 check, but a welfare queen with three kids that hasn't paid a dime in taxes in her entire life will get $1,200.  Not only is it going to further break the economy, but it's entirely unfair in all regards.

Besides, how does 10% of the population get away without paying taxes?  I had to pay tax when I made $5.75 an hour in high school.  I can't imagine any able-bodied person making less than that in a year!

Let's face it, Pelosi just wants to buy another 30-50 million votes.  End of story.

-b0b
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #1 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 11:08am
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I got yelled at not too long ago about not giving money to charity for homeless people.  They said that I make more than enough to live off of and I should help people who don't have that.

Well guess what.  If you are able to stand, lift 20 lbs, and stay awake for 8 hours you can get a job down here if you even remotely try.  I see signs for factories looking for workers everyday.  There is only one reason these people are homeless, welfare.

Quote:
Besides, how does 10% of the population get away without paying taxes?


Why would illegal immigrants pay taxes?

Sad thing is it isn't just the government making these kind of great financial decisions.  Through my new job I have met 3 people who all took the buyout/layoff from GM.  I spoke with one guy about it.  He was cut a check for 145k (before taxes) to retire early/be layed off.  But when GM offered it they didn't have nearly enough people in the new work force to fill positions.  So he was hired back at his old salary.  In the end his pention is going to be less, but he got a 145k bonus.

Now as retarded as this sounds I hate to say Ford is thinking of doing the same thing on a massive scale (again).  And it is sad that Ford and GM are headed out, but we only have the unions to thank for that.

...hmm I got off track.
  
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #2 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 11:51am
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It looks like it went through as advertised.  Damn it...


Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_go_co/economy_stimulus

WASHINGTON - Democratic and Republican congressional leaders reached a tentative deal Thursday on tax rebates of $300 to $1,200 per family and business tax cuts to jolt the slumping economy.

Congressional officials close to the negotiations said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio reached agreement in principle in a telephone call Thursday morning.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the two wanted key members of their parties to sign off on the accord before any announcement.

The accord came as the White House said Thursday an agreement was imminent.

Pelosi, D-Calif., agreed to drop increases in food stamp and unemployment benefits during a Wednesday meeting in exchange for gaining rebates of at least $300 for almost everyone earning a paycheck, including low-income earners who make too little to pay income taxes.

Families with children would receive an additional $300 per child, subject to an overall cap of perhaps $1,200, according to a senior House aide who outlined the deal on condition of anonymity in advance of formal adoption of the whole package. Rebates would go to people earning below a certain income cap, likely individuals earning $75,000 or less and couples with incomes of $150,000 or less.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information.


If they are just going to hand out money, why not just make it $10,000 or $100,000?  That would really get the economy going.

If you pay thousands in taxes and have no kids, you get back $300. On the other hand, if you pay nothing in taxes and have three welfare babies, you receive $1200.00 in free money!  Woohoo!  I love how this has changed from a tax rebate to full-blown wealth distribution practically overnight.

Of course, you get really screwed if you make more than $75,000, in which case you get a whopping nothing!  This in spite of the fact that you pay ridiculously high taxes.  How the Hell is that fair?  Just as an FYI...

Quote:
*  The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.


Thanks for supporting America, rich people.  I hope you weren't expecting a check like the rest of us...

-b0b
(...grrs.)


  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #3 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 1:28pm
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With a country who's worth a good 10s of trillions of dollars...do they really expect this to "stimulate" the economy?

I also find it funny that when the Republicans give out tax refunds the Dems cry and cry.  However, when the Dems want to give out free money that comes from the tax payers and "redistribute the wealth"...that's a good thing?

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #4 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 2:41pm
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I think Bob quoted the prices wrong.  Not a huge deal, but still

Quote:
Individuals who pay income taxes would get up to $600, working couples $1,200 and those couples with children an additional $300 per child under the agreement. Workers who make at least $3,000 but don't pay taxes would get $300 rebates.

Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325192,00.html

  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #5 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 2:50pm
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Where did I quote the prices wrong?

-b0b
(...didn't see it.)
  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #6 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 3:02pm
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If this rebate is similar to the 2000 rebate, it's nothing more than an advance on the normal 2007 tax refund.  In other words, if you would normally get a $1,000 tax return in 2008 for 2007's taxes, but you get $300 from this "Stimulus Package," you'll get $700 next year instead.

If this is the case, I wonder what will happen to the folks that don't pay taxes?  If their normal tax burden is $0, does that mean they'll owe $300 next year if they get a $300 payout this year?  I'm sure Pelosi will quickly forgive that debt if that's the case.

-b0b
(...hopes a fully detailed outline is given soon.)

  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #7 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 3:03pm
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bob, you did it wrong, just live with it.


I can't wait to get my refund.  I am going to stimulate the economy by giving it all to charity.


BAHAHAHAHA!  Almost had you there.
  
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #8 - Jan 24th, 2008 at 3:25pm
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Bush's plan was to eliminate the 10% tax bracket, allowing folk to get up to a max of ~$800 back. In this new plan, everyone gets 300 back, except for the rich... and those that pay income tax get 300 more.

then of course theres more if you're married or have kids. I don't know where the $300 is coming from to pay those that don't pay income tax. I haven't seen anything about this coming out of next years rebates.
  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2008 at 9:33am
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Quote:
http://www.swans.com/library/art14/mdolin31.html

by Michael Doliner

(Swans - March 10, 2008) By now most people know that the "subprime" crisis is no such thing. What has happened is the final result of the long decay of the rate of profit (1) in the American economy. As productive activity no longer paid, investors turned to interest on credit to provide sufficient rates of return. During the first part of the twenty-first century they devised new ways to lend. Bankers and mortgage brokers offered credit to just about anybody who breathed, and credit built upon credit. Mortgages were only one area in which they did this, but looking at them gives a good illustration of what is happening.

The note guaranteed by a mortgage is a promise to pay a debt, usually in monthly installments. The note provides its owner with a stream of income and he can sell the note for a lump sum. Mortgage brokers have sold the notes for a long time, but recently they have done so in new ways. Wall Street got into this game by creating new debt instruments (bonds) called Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs) and Structured Investment Vehicles (SIVs). They are nothing more than collections or bundles of notes (backed by mortgages) that can be sold to investors. If someone can borrow money for a lower interest rate than is on the note then he can use the borrowed money to buy many notes. Thus they built a pyramid of debt. Since Japan has been lending money at practically zero interest, this pyramid grew huge.

These Wall Street bundles looked like practically foolproof sources of income. Actuaries judged the likelihood of homeowners defaulting on their mortgages from past performance and assured everybody they were safe. Given that investors were buying large bundles of loans the likelihood of default could easily be factored into the price. The likelihood of default on riskier loans could be offset with lower prices. Wall Street divided the bundles of loans up into "tranches" with the riskiest giving the largest rewards.

But to make all this even safer Wall Street brokers bought insurance through "monoline" insurance companies whose business is to insure bonds. They insured buyers of bonds against default. These monoline insurance companies had, before this, insured primarily municipal bonds. These rarely default and the monolines had a sweet deal. But this new source of business seemed even sweeter. Because their business had been so solid up until this time these monoline companies all had Aaa ratings with Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch, the world's three ratings agencies. Their ratings transferred to the bonds they insured, making the mortgage-backed bonds AAA investments even though many of the borrowers were "subprime." With all this insurance, investors, including staid conservative banks, gobbled up these investment vehicles.

The game seemed so good that the most sophisticated investors, including banks such as Citibank and J.P. Morgan, and brokerage firms such as Bear Sterns, invested in these vehicles and encouraged their clients to do likewise. Many Hedge Funds joined them. Foreign countries jumped in. The final owners of the notes were very far away from those who originated them. Local mortgage brokers wrote the mortgages but then quickly sold them. These "account executives," who were supposed to check on the borrowers' ability and inclination to pay, had no incentive to be too careful, and were soon fired if they were. Mortgage brokers made money on the number of mortgages written, not on their quality. They were not hurt when the borrower defaulted.

All this led to an enormous increase in the amount of mortgage money available and a loosening of the standards for loans. Since mortgage brokers didn't care, people were given mortgages they couldn't possibly pay. People out of work refinanced their houses, increasing their debt but remaining afloat on the proceeds. Thus there were more buyers with more money looking to buy houses, and the prices of houses skyrocketed.

With all these questionable loans on ever inflating property values, eventually the defaults began to dribble in. And soon there were enough of them to make the owners of the CDOs and SIVs nervous. People who had money in hedge funds heavily invested in these vehicles wanted to take their money out. But when the hedge funds tried to sell the CDOs and SIVs to pay off the investors they found there was a very weak market for them. Word of the defaults had gotten around. Since these hedge funds had borrowed most of the money to buy these securities, they had to sell a lot of them to get much capital back. In July 2007, two Bear Sterns hedge funds collapsed. (2) Share prices for other funds fell off a cliff. The market for CDOs and SIVs suddenly ended. Nobody wanted to buy them, period.

The sudden end of the market for mortgage-backed bonds turned off the gusher of money that Wall Street had been pouring into mortgages. Banks now had to look at mortgages as if they were taking the risks themselves, and they became a lot more careful. In the heyday they had offered no money down mortgages and even lent more than the value of the property, allowing the new owner to emerge from the deal with money in his pocket. They had given money to people with dubious credit histories and insufficient income. No more. With more stringent guidelines and demands for larger down payments the buyer pool shrank and buyers could buy less house. A housing market geared to a large demand suddenly found it had a smaller one. Mega-builders in Florida, California, and elsewhere found that houses in their giant projects were not selling, and they stopped building. The booming real estate market ended, and prices began to fall.

With falling prices mortgage defaults increased. Those who had been refinancing their houses to pay the mortgages were stuck. Speculators who had bought houses expecting to flip them at higher prices were also stuck and wanted out fast. Adjustable rate mortgages that had been sold with ridiculously low "teaser rates" began to reset to much higher rates that the borrowers couldn't pay. They defaulted. The snowball of real estate decline began to roll.

As defaults increased, the CDOs and SIVs that banks, brokerage houses, and other clever investors still owned became less and less attractive. But these securities retained their AAA ratings because the monoline insurance companies backed them, and the monolines had Aaa ratings. When people began looking at the monolines it became obvious that they were woefully undercapitalized. Their exposure to the mortgage backed securities was something like one trillion dollars, of which about $130 billion had gone bad, (3) and their capital amounted to about $15 billion. Clearly, they should already be out of business. At least they should lose their AAA rating. But if they lost their AAA rating then the bonds they insure would also lose their AAA rating. If that happened those bonds would no longer be investment grade and the banks, because of banking regulations, would have to sell them. But there is no market for these things now. The banks would have to take huge losses, probably going bankrupt. These liabilities seem to be as large as the entire American banking system. So even though the monolines were insurance companies nobody wanted them to actually pay off on their policies, for that would put them out of business. Their AAA ratings were worth more than their cash.

But it didn't take an Einstein to see that the monolines were essentially insolvent. The ratings agencies, Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch, threatened to downgrade their ratings as a result. To avoid this, a number of "bailout plans" were floated, consisting, essentially, of banks lending money to the monolines. The ratings agencies, aware that a downgrade of the monoline ratings might bring down the whole system, reaffirmed the AAA ratings of the monolines, even though none of these bailouts could possibly cover the real liabilities, and none of them has materialized in any case. For anyone who would lend money to the monolines, essentially bankrupt businesses, would have to be crazy.

When the ratings agencies reaffirmed the monolines' bogus AAA ratings they completely discredited themselves, essentially putting themselves out of business. The ratings were so obviously fraudulent that nobody will believe them again. However, a whole new paradigm developed in which fraudulent ratings may not matter. Even though nobody believes in the monolines' AAA ratings they serve their purpose anyway. For the banking regulations specify AAA ratings for investment backed securities and say nothing about the plausibility of these ratings. The mortgage backed securities will retain their "investment grade" rating as long as the monolines retain their AAA ratings, no matter how obviously bogus. The stock market has caught onto the game. When news of a bailout appeared the market rallied, even though these clever traders could not have helped knowing that the bailout would never happen and was, in any case, insufficient. They knew the drama was a farce. They simply agreed en mass to play along. The alternative was a collapse of the whole system.

The American economy now depends upon all the players going along with good news they all know is bogus. Nobody wants the entire system to fail, so they play along with the game. Although the mortgage backed securities are nearly worthless, nobody wants to find out just how worthless they are. So nobody puts them on the market and nobody tries to collect on the monoline insurance. To shore up the monolines' bogus AAA rating the banks float news of bogus bailout plans no one is likely to put into practice unless he is a complete idiot. The ratings agencies take these obviously bogus bailout plans at face value, ignore the fact that even if they were to be implemented they would be woefully inadequate, and reaffirm the monolines' bogus Aaa ratings. So everyone pretends that these mortgage-backed securities, sometimes inadvertently called toxic sludge, are still valuable. Stockbrokers go along with the game by pretending these bailout plans are really good news even though they know they are bogus, and they bid up stocks. As long as this continues the banks and brokerage houses can keep these securities off their balance sheets and in hedge funds. Since everyone's exposure is hidden nobody knows who is holding these worthless securities and is thus essentially broke, so nobody wants to lend any money to anybody.

So much for credit as a source of profit. The whole credit system is frozen up. It is like someone holding his breath. How long can he go on? Who knows, but not long. At the bottom of the whole pile the lowly mortgage payer is still having his problems. Defaults and foreclosures are increasing dramatically, and housing prices are declining. The credit freeze is accelerating the decline. This has produced something new. Many homeowners are discovering that their houses are worth far less than they owe on them. "Not since the Depression has a larger share of Americans owed more on their homes than they are worth. With the collapse of the housing boom, nearly 8.8 million homeowners, or 10.3 percent of the total, are underwater. That is more than double the percentage just a year ago, according to a new estimate of the damage by Moody's Economy.com." (4) Thus even though they might be able to pay the mortgage, they find no real inclination to do so. Whereas people used to feel morally obligated to pay debts they had contracted for, they no longer do. A new Web site shows them how to walk away without any liability. (5) As these people walk away, prices will fall still further. The idea that paying one's debts is essential to an upright and honorable life seems no longer current. The old threat of damage to one's credit rating no longer seems so scary. Homeownership, now that prices are falling, no longer seems so attractive. Renting is looking good. The whole idea of homeownership as a source of security seems to have vanished. Credit card defaults and car loan defaults are rising almost as fast as mortgage defaults. To repay or not to repay is now seen as a purely business, rather than a moral, decision. This pulls out the supports from all the mathematical models upon which the system is based.

The really fun news is that this is only the tip of the iceberg. "Credit default swaps" can be thought of as freelance monoline insurance on any kind of debt obligation. But unlike with monoline insurance, nobody knows who is obligated to pay or whether he is able to do so. It is estimated that there are about $43 trillion in credit default swaps. (6)

With frozen credit markets, capitalism has come to an end. Making things doesn't pay, and now you can't lend money to make money. What is a capitalist -- excuse me, entrepreneur, going to do? Naturally he will look to the Fed for a rescue. Free markets are fine and dandy unless I need a bailout. The Fed has the right to print money and lend it to banks. Great business if you can get it. The Fed, to unclog the arteries of the credit system, lowers its interest rate. But to whom are you going to lend money? Nobody knows which banks are already bankrupt, and now even the little guy is no longer finding his obligation to pay all that much of an obligation. In the end the whole credit system depends upon the social convention that debts ought to be repaid, and this social convention seems to be dissolving. When people begin walking away, lower interest rates are not going to help.

Meanwhile everybody is edging towards the exits. Every investor would like to get out without anyone else noticing that he has left. Once it becomes obvious that everyone wants out the rush to the exits will keep everyone from leaving.


I thought this article was pretty decent at summarizing the current credit crisis.  It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.

-b0b
(...recession?)
  

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #10 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 9:01am
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The Asian markets are getting the crap beat out of them right now.

  • The Nikkei dropped 1,193 points in the first 11 minutes of trading.
  • MSNBC is reporting that the Bank of Indonesia is selling off the US dollar.
  • Oil is at $111.09.
  • The Dollar Index (USDX) is down to 70.72.
  • DOW Futures are down -284 on Bloomberg.


I bet the DOW is going to plummet this morning.  If you've got any investments, be sure to hold on to your hats!

-b0b
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #11 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 9:18am
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Don't worry, I have all my money invested in MacGyver collectible plates!

Lets hope those don't drop in value...
  
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #12 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 10:15am
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They never will...and if you ever need to make an escape device if your apartment is on fire, they will double as safety devices/nuclear weapons.

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #13 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 11:43am
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Don't forget the paper clip and duct tape!

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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #14 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 12:24pm
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speaking of pwnage, I saw a license plate that said IPWNJOO and I weeped for humanity.
  

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