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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Cry freedom! (Read 166113 times)
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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #510 - Jan 14th, 2007 at 12:33pm
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Your dictatorial British govt is at work again...with more tyranny than ever before!!!

Quote:
Tracking bikers’ speed smacks of ‘big brother’

Marc Meneaud

MOTORBIKE enthusiasts Tania and Dave Winterburn have hit out at “big brother” proposals to monitor bikers and force them to cut their speed.

The couple, who own a Leamington motorbike accessory shop and have been keen riders for 30 years, say government plans for new compulsory devices that can track individual bikers are “farcical”.

Ministers are exploring the introduction of the devices - expected to cost hundreds of pounds - which automatically cut the throttle on motor-bikes to bring them within the speed limit.

Known as Intelligent Speed Adaptation (ISA), the devices will also be able to track bikers’ journeys and store data about each motorbike’s speed.

If further trials are successful, the devices could be brought in for cars and other vehicles in an attempt to drastically cut the death toll on the country’s roads.

However Tania, co-owner of Motorcycle World in Union Street, Leamington, said: “We have been bikers for more years than we care to mention and we have found that bikers are all lawabiding citizens who agree with riding sensibly.

“Everyone knows that there are young kids getting on bikes and speeding and going too fast but bringing this in is going too far.

“It is worrying that someone will be able to track you and control your speed. It is big brother.”

Tania, of Fosse Way, Radford Semele, said shops selling motorcycle equipment would also suffer if the compulsory devices - similar to satellite navigation systems - were introduced.

She said: “Will the riders be forced to pay for this? If the government is bringing in the devices the manufacturers should pay for them.”

The devices have already been tested at the Motorcycle Industry Research Association (MIRA) in Watling Street, Nuneaton, amid proposals to introduce them on new bikes and cars.

Tom Warterer, technical director of the Motorcycle Industry Association, based in Eaton Road, Coventry, has been involved in research into the ISA devices in motorbikes and cars.

He said experiments had been carried out using a buzzer in a helmet or a vibrating seat which is triggered when a signal from a roadside beacon detects the rider is breaking the speed limit.

More controversial proposals include fitting devices that control the motorbike’s speed.


What would happen if the biker had to get away from a drunk driver by increasing his speed?  What would happen if the biker had to get away from terrorists who were trying to kidnap him?  There are reasons why cars and other vehicles go over the 70 MPH max that most countries have....well except for Canada...they make you drive 40 MPH on the highway!!!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #511 - Jan 16th, 2007 at 4:42pm
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I was debating whether or not to post this:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24018_Dispatches-_Undercover_Mosqu...

It's UK Channel 4 documentary Dispatches: Undercover Mosque, exposing evidence of Islamic supremacism, shocking misogyny, and support for violence at a number of Britain’s leading mosques and Muslim institutions.

It's pretty scary and while I'm not posting this as to say that all Muslims think this.  I would question whether or not the same things are being taught here as well.  Because you have to remember, whereas Christian fundamentalist are "closed minded" to anything outside the Bible they still practice love for non-believers and sinner.  Whereas, in what I found to be startling, these Islamic fundamentalists who are supposedly the mainstream in Britian are completely opposite.  I think this adds further proof as to which Faith is correct and which religion is false.

Again, I want to warn people that this isn't posted to be hateful towards Muslims.  Most of the time the globalists use these same people to carry out their bidding.  This is for informative purposes and not for hateful attitudes.

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #512 - Jan 17th, 2007 at 12:13pm
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I read an article about this a couple days back.  It was quite insightful but - sadly - not entirely unexpected.

-b0b
("...religion of peace" my butt.)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #513 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 7:56pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/01/18/china.missile/index.html

Quote:
China last week successfully used a missile to destroy an orbiting satellite, U.S. government officials told CNN on Thursday, in a test that could undermine relations with the West and pose a threat to satellites important to the U.S. military.


im sure you guys saw this, but at least you know now how the Chinese invasion of the US will go! We are gonna lose military satellites... hooray! Maybe they'll take down enough gps satellites as well!
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #514 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 8:32pm
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Dupe!

http://www.twncommunications.net/Forum/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1165336311/825#...



-b0b
(...subtracts a point of Briney's geek cred.)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #515 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 10:21pm
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Manual lays out rules for Guantanamo trials
POSTED: 8:16 p.m. EST, January 18, 2007

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates is submitting to Congress a manual for trials of detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay that would allow the admission of hearsay evidence and coerced testimony, a Pentagon official told reporters Thursday.

The manual was drafted to comply with a law passed last year that restored the Bush administration's military commissions created to try terrorist suspects.

The Supreme Court had struck down the commissions as unconstitutional. (Watch a detainee's family tell about his letter home Video)

The procedures outlined in the manual "will ensure that unlawful enemy combatants suspected of war crimes and certain other offenses are prosecuted before regularly constituted courts affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized people," said Principal Deputy General Counsel Dan Dell'Orto.

Dell'Orto called the manual "the most comprehensive legal framework for the prosecution of war criminals in U.S. history."

The rights of the accused are "very much the same" as those in a court-martial, he said.

About 400 detainees are being held at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Dell'Orto said the manual calls for the accused to be presumed innocent and requires that convictions be based on guilt proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Independent counsel will "represent defendants zealously and protect against even the appearance of unlawful influence" in a jury system comparable to that used by general courts-martial, he said.

Defendants are further to be provided with evidence before its admission in court, he said.

Admission of classified evidence outside the presence of the accused is prohibited, he said.

In addition, the accused must be granted "a reasonable opportunity" to obtain evidence and witnesses," and are granted the right to protection against self-incrimination, he said.

Anyone found guilty has the right to appeal, first to a court of military commission review, then to the Circuit Court of the District of Columbia and finally to the Supreme Court of the United States, he said.

The statute provides for the admissibility of hearsay evidence, an issue of contention among defense lawyers. Dell'Orto said the admission of such evidence should not necessarily weigh against defendants, since they, too, can enter such evidence, which thereby "levels the playing field, if you will."

And both sides can attack the credibility of witnesses, he said.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Hemingway, a legal adviser to the Office of Military Commissions, told reporters that the manual provides for a "clear prohibition of evidence obtained by torture" if it was obtained after December 30, 2005.

But if it was obtained before that time, and if the judge determines that it is reliable, it may be admitted, he said.

No evidence -- not even classified evidence -- will be admissible that the accused has not seen, but the manual lays out procedures under which the government could ask the judge to rule on whether "certain matters should be redacted," or summarized or replaced with substitute evidence, Hemingway said.

Dell'Orto predicted that, with the manual's completion, cases "will be moving forward soon."

The cases of 14 "high-value" detainees "will take some time because they are extremely complex," he said.

Of the nearly 400 detainees, 60 to 80 are facing potential charges for violations of the law of war, he added.


Ummm ya know what government?  ya know what I heard?  I heard that President Bush was umm the love child of Condi Rice and Dick Cheny and that Bin Ladden is actually Bush's brother and that Jason Briney had something to do with 9-11.  I mean look at him with his mightier than thou penis sculptor and always taking about conspiracies like some...some nut job!  Now beat him up!!!

The law is fun when you don't have to follow it!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #516 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 10:34pm
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Meh, didn't see it.  I see the huge block of quoted text and move on.

My geek card no! Smiley

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #517 - Jan 19th, 2007 at 8:45am
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You mean you don't read all the stories I post to inform you guys what's going on?   Cry

You know under Section 806 of the Patriot Act that means you're with Al Qaeda!

Any whoo...

http://infowars.net/articles/january2007/180107Bloggers_Prison.htm

Can anyone tell from this new "law" whether or not they mean 500 viewers a day or overall or what?  Cause if it's over all I need to go to the detention camp now cause I'll have my balls hammered on a hot heating grate long before I comply with this!

Have fun with that image!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #518 - Jan 30th, 2007 at 7:01pm
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Quote:
FBI turns to broad new wiretap method
By Declan McCullagh, CNET News.com
Published on ZDNet News: January 30, 2007, 4:00 AM PT
icn_balloon_154x48
+ 9
9 votes Worthwhile?

    * ZDNet Tags: Privacy,
    * Government,
    * Security,

FBI turns to broad new wiretap method The FBI appears to have adopted an invasive Internet surveillance technique that collects far more data on innocent Americans than previously has been disclosed.

Instead of recording only what a particular suspect is doing, agents conducting investigations appear to be assembling the activities of thousands of Internet users at a time into massive databases, according to current and former officials. That database can subsequently be queried for names, e-mail addresses or keywords.

Such a technique is broader and potentially more intrusive than the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system, later renamed DCS1000. It raises concerns similar to those stirred by widespread Internet monitoring that the National Security Agency is said to have done, according to documents that have surfaced in one federal lawsuit, and may stretch the bounds of what's legally permissible.

Call it the vacuum-cleaner approach. It's employed when police have obtained a court order and an Internet service provider can't "isolate the particular person or IP address" because of technical constraints, says Paul Ohm, a former trial attorney at the Justice Department's Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section. (An Internet Protocol address is a series of digits that can identify an individual computer.)

That kind of full-pipe surveillance can record all Internet traffic, including Web browsing--or, optionally, only certain subsets such as all e-mail messages flowing through the network. Interception typically takes place inside an Internet provider's network at the junction point of a router or network switch.

The technique came to light at the Search & Seizure in the Digital Age symposium held at Stanford University's law school on Friday. Ohm, who is now a law professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and Richard Downing, a CCIPS assistant deputy chief, discussed it during the symposium.

In a telephone conversation afterward, Ohm said that full-pipe recording has become federal agents' default method for Internet surveillance. "You collect wherever you can on the (network) segment," he said. "If it happens to be the segment that has a lot of IP addresses, you don't throw away the other IP addresses. You do that after the fact."

"You intercept first and you use whatever filtering, data mining to get at the information about the person you're trying to monitor," he added.

On Monday, a Justice Department representative would not immediately answer questions about this kind of surveillance technique.

"What they're doing is even worse than Carnivore," said Kevin Bankston, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who attended the Stanford event. "What they're doing is intercepting everyone and then choosing their targets."

When the FBI announced two years ago it had abandoned Carnivore, news reports said that the bureau would increasingly rely on Internet providers to conduct the surveillance and reimburse them for costs. While Carnivore was the subject of congressional scrutiny and outside audits, the FBI's current Internet eavesdropping techniques have received little attention.

Carnivore apparently did not perform full-pipe recording. A technical report (PDF: "Independent Technical Review of the Carnivore System") from December 2000 prepared for the Justice Department said that Carnivore "accumulates no data other than that which passes its filters" and that it saves packets "for later analysis only after they are positively linked by the filter settings to a target."

One reason why the full-pipe technique raises novel legal questions is that under federal law, the FBI must perform what's called "minimization."

Federal law says that agents must "minimize the interception of communications not otherwise subject to interception" and keep the supervising judge informed of what's happening. Minimization is designed to provide at least a modicum of privacy by limiting police eavesdropping on innocuous conversations.

Prosecutors routinely hold presurveillance "minimization meetings" with investigators to discuss ground rules. Common investigatory rules permit agents to listen in on a phone call for two minutes at a time, with at least one minute elapsing between the spot-monitoring sessions.

That section of federal law mentions only real-time interception--and does not explicitly authorize the creation of a database with information on thousands of innocent targets.

But a nearby sentence adds: "In the event the intercepted communication is in a code or foreign language, and an expert in that foreign language or code is not reasonably available during the interception period, minimization may be accomplished as soon as practicable after such interception."

Downing, the assistant deputy chief at the Justice Department's computer crime section, pointed to that language on Friday. Because digital communications amount to a foreign language or code, he said, federal agents are legally permitted to record everything and sort through it later. (Downing stressed that he was not speaking on behalf of the Justice Department.)

"Take a look at the legislative history from the mid '90s," Downing said. "It's pretty clear from that that Congress very much intended it to apply to electronic types of wiretapping."

EFF's Bankston disagrees. He said that the FBI is "collecting and apparently storing indefinitely the communications of thousands--if not hundreds of thousands--of innocent Americans in violation of the Wiretap Act and the 4th Amendment to the Constitution."

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C., said a reasonable approach would be to require that federal agents only receive information that's explicitly permitted by the court order. "The obligation should be on both the (Internet provider) and the government to make sure that only the information responsive to the warrant is disclosed to the government," he said.

Courts have been wrestling with minimization requirements for over a generation. In a 1978 Supreme Court decision, Scott v. United States, the justices upheld police wiretaps of people suspected of selling illegal drugs.

But in his majority opinion, Justice William Rehnquist said that broad monitoring to nab one suspect might go too far. "If the agents are permitted to tap a public telephone because one individual is thought to be placing bets over the phone, substantial doubts as to minimization may arise if the agents listen to every call which goes out over that phone regardless of who places the call," he wrote.

Another unanswered question is whether a database of recorded Internet communications can legally be mined for information about unrelated criminal offenses such as drug use, copyright infringement or tax crimes. One 1978 case, U.S. v. Pine, said that investigators could continue to listen in on a telephone line when other illegal activities--not specified in the original wiretap order--were being discussed. Those discussions could then be used against a defendant in a criminal prosecution.

Ohm, the former Justice Department attorney who presented a paper on the Fourth Amendment, said he has doubts about the constitutionality of full-pipe recording. "The question that's interesting, although I don't know whether it's so clear, is whether this is illegal, whether it's constitutional," he said. "Is Congress even aware they're doing this? I don't know the answers."


Man was this a nice article KILL.  It seems funny to think that anything said PRESIDENT on internet postings NOVEMBER are taken seriously TWENTY-SECOND by the government.  Cause anyone DEALEY could just come right out PLAZA and say anything..like...BEHIND THE PICKET FENCE...ya know?

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #519 - Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:38pm
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Crist wants touch-screen voting machines gone

By STEVE BOSQUET
Published January 31, 2007
ADVERTISEMENT

TALLAHASSEE — Eager to end six troublesome years of touch screen voting in Florida, Gov. Charlie Crist wants every county to switch to paper ballots by 2008.


Crist will ask the Legislature to spend more than $30-million to replace touch screens with an optical scan system that allows a voter to mark an oval next to a candidate’s name before slipping a ballot into an electronic reader — the same way absentee ballots are cast.

The change would affect a majority of the state’s voters living in 15 mostly urban counties, including Pinellas, Hillsborough and Pasco.

Crist will travel today to Palm Beach County, home of the disgraced “butterfly ballot” that in 2000 became a symbol of electoral ineptitude.

Accompanied by Secretary of State Kurt Browning and U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler, a Democrat and a vocal critic of touch screen voting, Crist will endorse the change in voting systems while offering the money to pay for it.

“I think it’s important to make sure people have confidence in our voting system,” Crist said Wednesday. “If there’s a need for a recount, I think it’s important that we have something to recount.”

Supporters of optical scan voting say it is more certain to reflect a voter’s intent because it creates a paper record of every ballot.

In a touch screen system, a voter receives a card and inserts it into an ATM-like machine and touches the screen to record choices. The card is sent to the supervisor of elections, where the choices are downloaded and counted.

No tangible record exists.

Crist’s eagerness to junk touch-screen voting comes amid a continuing furor over the high number of undervotes in a close Congressional election in Sarasota conducted with touch-screen machines.

The lack of a paper audit trail has frustrated efforts to conduct a manual recount. The trailing candidate, Democrat Christine Jennings, filed a lawsuit asking for another vote.

Reaction to the Crist plan Wednesday was cautious.

Pinellas County uses two massive optical scan machines to process absentee and provisional ballots. The bulk of the voting during a county-wide election takes place on 3,400 touch screen machines.

Pinellas County Supervisor of Elections spokeswoman Nancy Whitlock said she was reluctant to comment on Crist’s proposal before the governor makes his announcement.

But Whitlock said that if touch screens were replaced with optical scanners, vote counting would take much longer. She said that under federal election rules, each polling place must have a touch screen to serve the disabled.

In 2001, Pinellas spent $14-million to buy an electronic voting system, much of it spent toward buying touch screen machines. Whitlock said the county would have to consider selling its touch screens, perhaps to a jurisdiction in another state, to avoid a financial loss.

Pasco County Supervisor of Elections Brian Corley said transparency and security are key points.

“It’s no secret Florida ... has been a lightning rod of controversy,” Corley said. “There seems to be the will of the people to move toward paper trails. If that would satisfy the people, then I would support it.”

Some voting-system watchdogs expressed skepticism about what they see as a hasty decision by the new governor.

The American Civil Liberties Union said Crist’s impulse to scrap touch screen units and replace them with optical scanners was “too quick.” The ACLU said it was concerned with the impact on voters who do not speak English or have physical disabilities.

On the other hand, the activist group People for the American Way called Crist’s plan “a strong first step” and said touch screen machines “have caused too many problems in Florida.’’

Leon County Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho, a fierce critic of touch screens, also hailed the move.
Sancho said Crist is following the recommendation of an elections task force made six years ago after the hanging-chad fiasco of the presidential recount. The task force urged that all 67 counties be required to switch to optical scan voting, but lawmakers left the choice up to each county.

One lobbyist wore two hats, representing counties and a voting machine vendor. The Florida Association of Counties received cash commissions in return for endorsing machines sold by Election Systems & Software of Omaha, Neb.
The result, Sancho said, was a politically-motivated, lobbyist-influenced decisions by some counties to switch to touch screen technology.

“We dumbed down the process to accommodate technology that has limited capacity to be audited,” Sancho said. “That was simply the wrong way to go.”

The 15 touch screen counties are Pinellas, Hillsborough, Pasco, Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Charlotte, Collier, Duval, Indian River, Lake, Lee, Martin, Sarasota and Sumter.


While this sounds like a victory it really isn't...to a certain extent.  The votes are still going to be counted electronically but there will be at least the paper ballots left.  I wish we would use a count system and the read out.  Have each voting area manned by at least 2 people and count the votes and see if they match up with the electronic read out.  If they match send them on to HQ to get re-checked.  People might say that's a lot of work...I say it's protecting our republic!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #520 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 10:22am
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Quote:
Mob severely beat 3 women on Halloween
– judge picks 'least restrictive disposition'
Posted: February 3, 2007
5:45 p.m. Eastern


© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

In a decision that shocked both sides – and left the prosecutor in tears – a Los Angeles County judge yesterday released four black teens to their parents to serve 60 days of house arrest for the severe beating of three young white women on Halloween night.

The attack on Laura Schneider, 21, Michelle Smith, 19, and Loren Hyman, 19, which occurred in in the Bixby Knolls section of Long Beach, was carried out by a large group of black teens – as many as 30, according to reports. The upscale neighborhood is known for lavish Halloween displays and has long attracted crowds.

Ten teens were charged in the attack. All maintained their innocence throughout the trial. Juvenile Court Judge Gibson Lee found nine of them guilty last month.

"Perhaps the only thing worse than suffering 13 facial fractures was seeing my friend Laura lying on the ground lifeless," Hyman told the court earlier this week, as victim-impact statements were offered before sentencing.

Schneider suffered a concussion after being struck by a skateboard when someone yelled out a racial slur.

Hyman, who was scheduled to have 4 1/2-hour facial reconstruction surgery yesterday, sustained multiple fractures in her nose and around her eye.

"I hope they're still in jail when our injuries are finally healed," Schneider said.

Both asked for "the harshest punishment possible" for the nine minors, saying they had done nothing to provoke the beatings and have been scared to leave their homes ever since.

But the sentences for the first four of the defendants issued yesterday were far from harsh. Instead of the nine months in probation camp Deputy Dist. Atty. Andrea Bouas had requested for three of the teens, Gibson sentenced them to probation until age 21, house arrest for 60 days and 250 hours of community service.

Bouas' jaw dropped when Lee gave the first defendant, Anthony Ross, probation, the Los Angeles Times reported, and she choked up, wiping her eyes with tissue, as the hearing continued.

Saying Anthony had been "the biggest aggressor," Bouas accused the teen, now 18, of lying about his involvement, his grades at school and having beaten Schneider "when she was already unconscious."

"If he were to be released home on probation, there would be no accountability for that action," she said. "The victims will feel like there is no justice if he walks out that door."

Anthony was convicted of three counts of assault – two with hate-crime enhancements and two with enhancements for personally inflicting great bodily harm.

Anthony's 16-year-old sister, unnamed because of her age, was the only defendant arrested with blood on her clothing. Bouas sought probation camp for the minor, but judge Lee gave her home probation as well.

Bouas, weeping in court, charged Anthony's twin sister, Antoinette, of directly causing Hyman's injury's.

"That should have some weight with the court, I would guess, but I'm not sure anymore," she said.

Despite agreeing that "it was an awful crime, terrible physical and emotional injuries," Lee said he had to "pick the least restrictive disposition" – a decision that has support among juvenile law experts.

"The whole idea is not to simply throw people into the criminal justice system," Daniel Macallair, executive director of the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice in San Francisco, told the Times. "The purpose of the juvenile justice system is not retribution; it's not even punishment. It's still rehabilitation."

Penalties are to be increased only if initial discipline doesn't work.

"A tenet of the juvenile system is to give a graduated response to the child acting out," said Cyn Yamashiro, a professor at Loyola Law School and director of its Center for Juvenile Law and Policy.

"Juvenile Court is a joke," said Barbara Schneider, mother of Laura, outside the Long Beach courthouse.

"We're just disgusted. That judge is a joke. He's going to be recalled. People are going to be screaming about this."


"Least Restrictive Disposition" my butt.  This is nothing shy of reverse racism, plain and simple.  If the ethnicities of the attackers and victims had been switched, we'd be reading about a bunch of preppy white kids getting locked up for years.

This is an absolute abortion of justice.  I've always wanted a daughter, but having one at this time in history seems to be an increasingly less humane thing to do.


Quote:
"A tenet of the juvenile system is to give a graduated response to the child acting out," said Cyn Yamashiro, a professor at Loyola Law School and director of its Center for Juvenile Law and Policy.


Thirteen facial fractures isn't just acting out.


Quote:
Penalties are to be increased only if initial discipline doesn't work.


That will most assuredly make the next victims of these fine examples of young Americans feel much better...

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #521 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 1:37pm
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Democrats in Congress set sights on unpaid taxes

Raw Story | February 5, 2007

According to an article in Monday's New York Times, Democrats in Congress are "hoping to finance an ambitious agenda without raising taxes" by collecting part of the $300 billion estimated to be lost every year due to unreported earnings.

However, a struggle is shaping up between the Democrats, who rely on IRS statements that it would be easy to collect an additional $50 to $100 billion a year, and the Bush administration, which believes that no more than $10 billion could realistically be gained by tightening up on tax cheats.

Excerpt:

On Monday, as part of President Bush's budget proposal, the Treasury Department will unveil more than a dozen proposals to pursue tax cheats. But officials said those ideas would bring in less than $10 billion a year in extra revenue. Mark W. Everson, the IRS commissioner, has expressed far greater optimism. At a hearing of the Senate Budget Committee a year ago, he told lawmakers that the government could recover "between $50 billion and $100 billion without changing the dynamic between the IRS and the people."

The looming clash over how much can be collected and how to do it has important political implications. If estimates of the tax gap are accurate, Democrats could have a huge amount of money for new spending on energy, education and domestic security.

Democrats badly want the money, because they have adopted strict "pay as you go" budgeting rules that require Congress to pay for any new programs or tax cuts with revenue from other areas.

"The tax gap is the logical place to go," said Rep. Rahm Emanuel, D-Ill., and chairman of the House Democratic Caucus.

FULL TIMES ARTICLE CAN BE READ AT THIS LINK
Democrats Seek Unpaid Taxes, Setting Up Clash
New York Times | February 2, 2007
EDMUND L. ANDREWS

WASHINGTON, Feb. 2 — Congressional Democrats, hoping to finance an ambitious agenda without raising taxes, are on a collision course with the Bush administration about pursuing the potentially vast amount of money that people hide from the Internal Revenue Service .

House and Senate Democrats say the government could collect as much as $100 billion more a year by whittling the tax gap — the unpaid taxes, mostly on unreported earnings, that the I.R.S. estimated was about $300 billion a year.

But the Treasury Department, which oversees the I.R.S., says it cannot realistically recover one-tenth as much as Democrats suggest.

On Monday, as part of President Bush's budget proposal, the Treasury Department will unveil more than a dozen proposals to pursue tax cheats. But officials said those ideas would bring in less than $10 billion a year in extra revenue.

Mark W. Everson, the I.R.S. commissioner, has expressed far greater optimism. At a hearing of the Senate Budget Committee a year ago, he told lawmakers that the government could recover “between $50 billion and $100 billion without changing the dynamic between the I.R.S. and the people.”

Recouping unpaid taxes is a perennial concern in Washington. But the issue may have new urgency with the Democrats now in power and driving the considerable momentum behind it. Representative Charles B. Rangel , Democrat of New York and chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, has cited the tax gap as a top priority for increasing revenue, ahead of any discussion about rolling back President Bush's tax cuts.

Democrats badly want the money because they have adopted strict “pay as you go” budgeting rules that require Congress to pay for any new programs or tax cuts with revenue from other areas.

“The tax gap is the logical place to go,” said Representative Rahm Emanuel, Democrat of Illinois and chairman of the House Democratic Caucus. “It's also the fair thing to do. When you have a number as high as $300 billion in unreported and uncollected income taxes, that puts a burden on everybody.”

Administration officials contend that Democrats have exaggerated the amount of money they can recover.

“At this point we have to do more research to understand where this money is,” said Michele Davis, a Treasury Department spokeswoman. “We are very mindful of the compliance burden on taxpayers who do follow the law.”

The Democrats have offered only a few specific proposals, and lawmakers have conspicuously refused to comment about proposals that could raise money but also provoke a political reaction from legions of self-employed people and family businesses.

Based on an analysis of audited tax returns from 2001, the I.R.S. recently estimated that the government lost $290 billion that year as a result of underreporting and underpayment of taxes.

More than 80 percent of that loss stemmed from underreporting by individuals, not corporations.

And the biggest problems were with people in business for themselves, who earned income that was not reported to the I.R.S. on W-2 forms or on the Form 1099 that businesses file when they pay independent contractors.

The I.R.S. estimated that it lost $109 billion on unreported business income, almost all of that from sole proprietors, like painters, plumbers, dry cleaners, florists, limousine drivers and restaurant owners.

Small-business lobbying groups have begun to mobilize against proposals intended to reduce the tax gap.

Two of the biggest trade associations in Washington, the United States Chamber of Commerce and the National Federation of Independent Business, organized the Coalition for Fairness in Tax Compliance in December to address lawmakers about proposals that might burden law-abiding business owners.

“I'm focused on avoiding the wrong solutions,” said Macey Davis, tax counsel for the National Federation of Independent Business, which represents more than 600,000 small companies, half of which have fewer than five employees. “We're not out to protect noncompliance. We're out to protect those who are compliant and whose businesses could be hurt.”

Small-business groups have provided powerful support to President Bush and to Republican lawmakers. But they are poised to fight at least one proposal by the Treasury Department, which would authorize the I.R.S. to obtain information about a business's revenues from credit card companies.

The proposal would allow the I.R.S. to compare the credit card payments made to a business with the revenues the business owner reports on his or her tax return. If the credit card payments were suspiciously high compared with what the business owner reported to the government, the I.R.S. could begin an audit.

Opponents of the proposal contend that it would catch very little wrong-doing because it would not examine payments made in cash or by check. They warn that it could have disruptive side effects on business operations. (A similar idea proposed by the Bush administration last year received virtually no attention from the Republican-led Congress.)

The Democrats' biggest obstacle is that the tax gap is in some ways as amorphous as “waste, fraud and abuse” — everyone is against it, but no one is sure how to go about dealing with it. Many tax experts agree that increasing compliance would require an array of tactics, from increased auditing to tougher reporting requirements, to address scores of different practices.

Many such efforts would probably prompt political resistance, whether from small-business lobbying groups or from the credit card companies that might be ordered to provide the I.R.S. with transaction data at no charge. And some efforts may not yield much extra revenue. Another proposal that could lead to organized political opposition is a plan to crack down on investors who understate their profits when selling stocks.

The I.R.S. estimated that it lost about $11 billion in 2001 from people who understated their capital gains after selling stock. According to the agency's review of tax returns that year, a year when the stock market was plunging and losses were more common than gains, about 38 percent of all people underreported their capital gains.

The problem, I.R.S. officials said, is that brokerage firms report only how much money a person receives from the sale of stock, not how much the person paid for it. Without an audit, the government has no way of verifying the profits that people report.

Nina Olson, the I.R.S.'s independent taxpayer advocate, has proposed that Congress require brokerage firms to report a person's purchase cost as well as sales proceeds to the government. Mr. Emanuel has introduced a bill based on the idea.

The Bush administration is also planning to ask Congress to provide more money for enforcement efforts, including money for more auditors. But the I.R.S. currently audits fewer than one out of 435 tax returns. Doubling the number of auditors would mean that the I.R.S. would still audit less than 1 percent of all returns.

Democratic lawmakers contend that the Bush administration has been dragging its feet on efforts to track down underreporting.

“I know they can't recover every dollar of the tax gap, but the I.R.S. needs to make an aggressive effort, and an honest one,” said Senator Max Baucus , Democrat of Montana and chairman of the Finance Committee. “Treasury shouldn't lowball their estimate.”

But in an interview last week, Mr. Baucus declined to propose any of his own ideas for reducing cheating. “I'm leaving it up to them,” he said, referring to the Treasury Department.

Some Treasury officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because President Bush had not announced his proposals, said that Democrats had exaggerated the amount of money they could recover. But in his testimony before the Senate budget committee last February, Mr. Everson said the government could recover much more than it has been collecting.

“What we've said is, between now and 2009, we want to get the compliance rate from 83.5 percent to 85 percent,” Mr. Everson said. “That gets you about $30 billion in improved compliance.”

Ms. Olson, the I.R.S. taxpayer advocate, said it was not implausible to recover something in the neighborhood of $100 billion a year.

“There's no silver bullet,” Ms. Olson cautioned, noting that the government had to use an array of tactics to address scores of different compliance problems. But she added, “I think there's a significant amount of money that's left on the table and that's not hard to recover.”


See this is why govt sucks more than anything else on Earth.  If the Dems are talking about income tax then it will only be used to pay off the interest of the national debt.  To find out more info I would greatly encourage everyone to dl on YouTube or torrent sites "America - Freedom To Facism"  our income taxes don't pay for infrastructure at all!  We have hundreds of other taxes to pay for everything in govt.  Roads are paid for by gas taxes, military is paid for by business and corporation taxes, etc.  I won't go into a big long rant how income tax is a voluntary system but this will not end well if the Dems have their way.  Also to show that it's not only the Dems who are grabbing for more of our money, Bush has asked Congress to pass his request for a 2.9 TRILLION dollar budget.

Fiscal conservative my eye!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #522 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 2:30pm
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The whole "Taxes are Voluntary" argument is total crap, but that's neither here nor there.

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(...researched the subject in depth recently.)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #523 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 4:22pm
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If you have any sources or resources I'd love to see them.

I am still researching the subject but I'm leaning more on what I've stated before.

Thanks.

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #524 - Feb 6th, 2007 at 8:05am
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There's an excellent thread on ARFCOM about the subject.  I'm traveling to Chicago for work today so remind me tomorrow and I'll see what I can find.

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