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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Cry freedom! (Read 165866 times)
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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #705 - Jul 6th, 2007 at 3:09am
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'Don't tell British about the EU treaty'

By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels and Brendan Carlin in London
Last Updated: 2:23am BST 03/07/2007

# Join the Telegraph campaign for an EU referendum

The new European Union treaty will mean "transfers of sovereignty" from Britain and Gordon Brown is right to hide the fact from the public, an EU leader admitted yesterday.

Jean-Claude Juncker, Luxembourg's premier and leader of the bloc of 13 single currency members, spoke out as the Prime Minister faced rising calls for a referendum on the treaty drawn up following the rejection of the old EU constitution by French and Dutch voters in 2005.
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Mr Juncker said he supported public debate on the treaty - except in Britain.

"I am astonished at those who are afraid of the people: one can always explain that what is in the interest of Europe is in the interests of our countries," he told Belgian newspaper Le Soir.

"Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"

Mr Juncker, a supporter of a United States of Europe, described the June 23 deal signed by Tony Blair as an "objective success" for friends of the EU constitution.

"There is a single legal personality for the EU, the primacy of European law, a new architecture for foreign and security policy, there is an enormous extension in the fields of the EU's powers, there is Charter of Fundamental Rights," he said, listing elements of the old constitution in the proposed treaty.

His remarks come as a further blow to Mr Brown as pro-referendum campaigners vowed to target Labour MPs in marginal constituencies.

The Open Europe campaign and other pro-referendum groups aim to put maximum pressure on MPs before a likely Commons vote next year on ratifying the treaty.

As with Mr Blair before him, Mr Brown has insisted that Britain's negotiating "red lines" were not broken at last month's summit - and therefore no referendum is needed.

But Mr Brown has hinted at some flexibility by saying he is prepared to listen to the national debate.

In its manifesto for the 2005 general election Labour promised to hold a referendum on the old constitution. The "no" results in France and Holland spared Mr Blair from having to deliver on that promise.

Last night, Open Europe served notice that anti-referendum MPs from all the main parties would face sustained pressure in their own constituencies in the coming months.

Lord Leach of Fairford, the Tory peer who is chairman of Open Europe, told The Daily Telegraph: "Gordon Brown should think twice before going back on his party's manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on a treaty that is the EU constitution in all but name.

"If he is serious about wanting to 'listen and learn' he should let the people have a say. We are building a formidable coalition to ensure that the Government keeps its promise."

An ICM/Open Europe poll recently found that 86 per cent of voters want a referendum on the treaty while 43 per cent of Labour supporters would be "definitely less likely" to vote for Mr Brown if he refuses one.


Nope no one world government going on here!  I'm really scared of what Gordon Brown will do.  He's going to be the new Bush...maybe even the new Chenny!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #706 - Jul 6th, 2007 at 8:06am
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Well, just as long as he's not the new Bill Clinton.

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #707 - Jul 6th, 2007 at 1:11pm
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Stewie is going to have a field day with this one...

Quote:
For Donald Vance, a 29-year-old veteran and an American citizen, the desire to play a small part in a big event would lead to the scariest experience of his life. While in Iraq, he was neither a victim of a roadside bomb nor taken prisoner by insurgents. Instead, he was held captive by the U.S. government — detained in a secret military prison.

"It's probably the worst thing I've ever lived through," says Vance, who along with another American is now suing his own government, which he says "treated me like a terrorist."

It all started in the summer of 2005 when Vance went to Baghdad. Born in Chicago, Vance had joined the Navy after high school and later worked in security.

He took a job with an Iraqi company, Shield Group Security, or SGS, which provides protection for businesses and organizations. Vance supervised security and logistics operations. Before long, he says he started noticing troubling things at the company — explosives and huge stockpiles of ammunition and weapons, including anti-aircraft guns. He worried they were going to militias involved in sectarian violence.

There was "more ammunition than we could ever, ever need," says Vance. "We employed somewhere between 600 and 800 Iraqis. We had thousands of rifles."

Vance became so alarmed by what he saw that when he returned to Chicago in October 2005 for his father's funeral, he called the FBI office there and volunteered his services. He says he became an informant because, "It's just the right thing to do."

Once back in Baghdad, Vance says he began almost daily secret contact with the FBI in Chicago, often through e-mails and with officials at the U.S. embassy, alleging illegal gun-running and corruption by the Iraqis who owned and ran the company.

"I really couldn't tell you how many days I thought about, 'What if I get caught?'" says Vance.

In April 2006, he thought that day had come. His co-worker, Nathan Ertel, also an American, tendered his resignation. And with that, Vance says, the atmosphere turned hostile.

"We were constantly watched," Vance says, "We were not allowed to go anywhere from outside the compound or with the compound under the supervision of an Iraqi, an armed Iraqi guard."

Vance says an Iraqi SGS manager then took their identification cards, which allowed them access to American facilities, such as the Green Zone. They felt trapped.

"We began making phone calls," Vance recalls. "I called the FBI. The experts over at the embassy let it be known that you're about to be kidnapped. We barricaded ourselves with as many guns as we can get our hands on. We just did an old-fashioned Alamo."

The U.S. military did come to rescue them. Vance says he then led soldiers to the secret cache of rifles, ammunition, explosives, even land mines.

The two men say they — and other employees who were Westerners — were taken to the U.S. embassy and debriefed. But their ordeal was just beginning.

"[We saw] soldiers with shackles in their hands and goggles and zip-ties. And we just knew something was terribly wrong," says Vance.

Vance and Ertel were eventually taken to Camp Cropper, a secret U.S. military prison near the Baghdad airport. It once held Saddam Hussein and now houses some of the most dangerous insurgents in all of Iraq.

Here's what Vance and Ertel say happened in that prison: They were strip-searched and each put in solitary confinement in tiny, cold cells. They were deliberately deprived of sleep with blaring music and bright lights. They were hooded and cuffed whenever moved. And although they were never physically tortured, there was always that threat.

"The guards employ what I would like to call as verbal Kung-Fu," says Vance. "It's 'do as we say or we will use excessive violence on you.'"

Their families back home had no idea what was happening. Until they were detained, Vance had called or e-mailed his fiancιe, Diane Schwarz, every day while in Iraq — and now he was not allowed to do either.

"I am thinking, you know, he's dead, he's kidnapped," recalls Schwarz.

After a week of intense interrogations for hours at a time, Vance learned why he was detained. He was given a document stating the military had found large caches of weapons at Vance's company and suspected he "may be involved in the possible distribution of these weapons to insurgent/terrorist groups."

He was a security detainee, just like an insurgent. And he says he was treated that way.

"The guards peeking in my cell see a Caucasian male, instantly they think he's a foreign fighter," says Vance. He recounts guards yelling at him, "You are Taliban. You are al-Qaida."

Vance says the charges against him were false and mirror exactly the allegations he had been making against his own company to the FBI.

"I'm basically saying to them: 'What are you talking about? I've been telling you for seven months now that this stuff is going on. You're detaining me but not the actual people that are doing it!'"

The military cleared Ertel and released him after more than a month in prison. But Vance stayed locked up.

At that point, prohibited from keeping notes, he began secretly scribbling diary entries and storing them in his military-issued Bible, whenever he had access to a pen.

The military now acknowledges that it took three weeks just to contact the FBI and confirm Vance was an informant. But even after that, Vance was held for another two months. In all, he was imprisoned for 97 days before being cleared of any wrongdoing and released.

"I looked like hell, completely emaciated, you know — beard, shaggy, dirty," remembers Vance. "They showered me, shaved me, cleaned me up and dumped me at Baghdad International Airport like it never happened.

Throughout the ordeal, the U.S. military said it thought Vance was helping the insurgents. Wasn't that a reasonable basis to hold and interrogate him?

"They could have investigated the true facts, found out exactly what was happening," says Vance. "What doesn't need to happen is throw people in a cell, we'll figure out the answers later. That's not the way to do things."

Donald Vance and Nathan Ertel have now filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government and Donald Rumsfeld, who was secretary of defense when they were detained. It is generally very difficult to sue the government, but experts say this case may be different because Vance and Ertel are American citizens; they were civilians held by the U.S. military; and they were detained for such a long time.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19226700/



God bless America?

-b0b
(...doesn't understand how that could happen.)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #708 - Jul 6th, 2007 at 2:00pm
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3 weeks to confirm an identity over the phone?...They work as fast as penguin.


I hope these men are now billionaires.
  
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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #709 - Jul 6th, 2007 at 2:38pm
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You see there's a movie coming out about a guy who was held in a secret prision when he wasn't guilty...I think it looks mighty good as an expose'.  It's called The Prisoner or: How I Planned To Kill Tony Blair

http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/theprisoneror/

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #710 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 9:27am
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Jury Duty Excuses Could Bring Charges

BARNSTABLE, Mass. (AP) -- A Cape Cod man who claimed he was homophobic, racist and a habitual liar to avoid jury duty earned an angry rebuke from a judge on Monday, who referred the case to prosecutors for possible charges.

"In 32 years of service in courtrooms, as a prosecutor, as a defense attorney and now as a judge, I have quite frankly never confronted such a brazen situation of an individual attempting to avoid juror service," Barnstable Superior Court Judge Gary Nickerson told Daniel Ellis, according to a preliminary court transcript of the exchange.

Ellis, of Falmouth, had been called to court with about 60 other potential jurors for possible service on a 23-member grand jury.

On a questionnaire that all potential jurors fill out, Ellis wrote that he didn't like homosexuals and blacks. He then echoed those sentiments in an interview with Nickerson.

"You say on your form that you're not a fan of homosexuals," Nickerson said.

"That I'm a racist," Ellis interrupted.

"I'm frequently found to be a liar, too. I can't really help it," Ellis added.

"I'm sorry?" Nickerson said.

"I said I'm frequently found to be a liar," Ellis replied.

"So, are you lying to me now?" Nickerson asked.

"Well, I don't know. I might be," was the response.

Ellis then admitted he really didn't want to serve on a jury.

"I have the distinct impression that you're intentionally trying to avoid jury service," Nickerson said.

"That's true," Ellis answered.

Nickerson ordered Ellis taken into custody. He was released later Monday morning.

Ellis could face perjury and other charges.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/ODD_RELUCTANT_JUROR?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&...


I'm all for the prosecutor pressing charges against this guy.  Perjuring yourself to avoid jury duty is an absolute disgrace.  Do people simply not understand the importance of jury trials in the American criminal justice system?

-b0b
(...would've jumped over the table and strangled that guy.)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #711 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 11:31am
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Well I think I can say you have never been called in then.  I would probably buy a $100 car and smash it into a tree to be "out of commission" before serving on a jury.  I feel that the only people that should be called in are the ones on wellfare or unemployment leaching off the system.  I had to drive to Kalamazoo 3 times, each time telling the judge I leave for tech (550 miles away) in 3, 2, and 1 days before they would let me go without filing charges.  If I ever get that letter in the mail again I will let them know how racist I am(I even hate white people!).  This just being called at random to drive up to downtown Kalamazoo with 2 days notice is bullshit.


...and thats all I have to say about that.
  
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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #712 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 12:21pm
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Well, when you're on trial for whatever crime of the century, I'm sure you'll appreciate having a jury that consists of welfare queens.  I'm sure they'll do a great job of taking your moral character into account.  I, on the other hand, would prefer a jury of my peers.

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #713 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:36pm
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Bob, you are absolutely correct.  Not to mention, Spanky, you can get a referral I believe at least 3 times if you get called in.  Plus you cannot be fired from a job, loose an interview, or loose credit in school because the court takes all of that...and if you do the school or company or whoever gets charged with, I think, obstruction.  So you might have missed the first day of class...ooo you couldn't get you sylibi and not drink for a few days.

If you look at the statistics you notice that jury trials are going the way of hangings.  This is one of the most important things in our legal system, other than having a trial itself.  This takes the decision out of the governments hands and puts it into the people's.  You look at the tax "law" violators and they are screwed over by the judges and rarely have jury trials...and when they do they are less likely to go to jail because juries tend to think, "what if I was there".  Juries can be stupid, yes, not all of them are perfect.  Yet, I would take my chances with 12 people rather than 1 judge who works for the same people as the prosecutor.

I wish the government would make a listing of all the people that wouldn't mind serving in a jury and pick from there as well as the general population.  At least then we wouldn't have to interfere with Spanky's special and precious life and I could have some fun on a jury trial.

If he was on the jury he'd probably be like that British juror who wore an mp3 player under her habib.  She just got arrested today, btw.  Go Britian for once!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #714 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 2:03pm
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Harsh!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #715 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 4:07pm
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very close stewie, I asked about that.  It was 2.5 weeks.  I don't know how other colleges work but that is important at tech....
  
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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #716 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 4:26pm
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Yeah, I think 2½ weeks at any school would be suicide.  Even if your professors didn't hold you responsible for any tests or assignments you missed, you'd still be screwed when exam time rolled around.

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #717 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 6:01pm
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Reasonable exceptions are necessary and I was just making a generalization depending on when you were called.  It was more of a response to your "only welfare people should be on juries" argument.

Just think if you were on a murder trial...you'd have to take a year off school!

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(You'd probably have more of a chance of getting with a woman on a 12 person jury than you would at Tech though)
  

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #718 - Jul 11th, 2007 at 8:52am
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Barroso says EU is an 'empire'

11.07.2007 - 09:12 CET | By Honor Mahony
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS – The EU is not just any old international organisation, nor is it a superstate, but it might just be an "empire," according to European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso.

Veering into uncharted naming territory after being asked on Tuesday (10 July) by a journalist what kind of a structure the 27-nation bloc is, Mr Barroso said "We are a very special construction unique in the history of mankind,"

"Sometimes I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empire. We have the dimension of empire," he said.

He went on the clarify that instead of like super state empires of old, the EU empire is built on voluntary pooling of power and not on military conquest.

"What we have is the first non-imperial empire," said the centre-right Mr Barroso, who was formally Portugal's prime minister.

"We have 27 countries that fully decided to work together and to pool their sovereignty. I believe it is a great construction and we should be proud of it."

The commission chief said he did not see why the EU should constantly be in "existential doubt" about this, adding that he did not see there being a danger of British, German or French identity ever being lost.

Communications commissioner Margot Wallstrom, present at the same press conference, steered clear of empire references.

Instead she paraphrased former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright's comment that one has to be either a "genius or French" to understand the EU.

They made the comments after giving the commission's official go ahead to a new treaty outline for the bloc.

This is to be negotiated over the coming months and is to result in a treaty being finalised before the end of the year.

The treaty mandate was agreed at an ill-tempered EU summit last month and is already being put into question in some capitals.

Poland has been particularly vocal about re-opening a key part of the agreement on EU voting rights.

But Mr Barroso reiterated previous comments that the treaty outline should not be undone.

"There is a principle of good faith. For me it is as important as any legal commitment," he said. "It is inconceivable that an agreement that was agreed unanimously in June is reopened now."

http://euobserver.com/9/24458


If Final Fantasy 6 taught us anything, it was that empires are BAAAAAD, mmkay!

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Re: Cry freedom!
Reply #719 - Jul 12th, 2007 at 9:34am
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SEATTLE —  Duncan M. McDonald is finally off the voter rolls after the Australian shepherd-terrier mix was sent absentee ballots for three elections.

King County Elections Director Sherril Huff said she canceled the voter registration Tuesday for the dog owned by Jane K. Balogh, 66, who registered her pet to protest a change in the law that she said made it too easy for non-citizens to cast ballots.

Balogh put her phone bill in the dog's name, then used that as identification when she mailed in the registration form in April 2006. In November, she wrote "VOID" across Duncan's ballot and returned it with an image of a paw print on the signature line.

She admitted the ruse when an election official called, but the dog was still sent absentee ballots for school bond elections in February and May.

"Quite frankly, the process did take too long, and it should have been addressed after the November election," said Bobbie Egan, an elections office spokeswoman.

County election procedures are being reviewed to provide speedier action against voting fraud, Egan said.

The removal came three weeks after Balogh was charged in King County Superior Court with making a false or misleading statement to a public servant, a misdemeanor. She pleaded not guilty to the charge in June.

A sheriff's investigator wrote that she admitted registering the dog under false pretenses "to make a point that anyone could vote, even an animal."

A preliminary court hearing was pending.


Wow, and we're worried about electronic ballots skewing the vote?

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